yes but that wasn’t the subject
The subject was whether every kid, regardless of whether they’re paddling the sea or a pond, has to be able to swim a mile in a 1/2 hour in order to paddle safely. That is pure nonsense whichever way you spin it.
This sport is facing an obvious danger, that being carelessness and disregard for safety. On the other end of the scales, elitists are trying to make it a sport for specialists. It is not.
Slushie answered this, but I’ll add…
– Last Updated: Dec-18-15 9:52 PM EST –
... one other thing. I stated no connection whatsoever between what you said about trouble happening a mile from shore and what Clyde said about it being necessary for a kid to be able to swim that far in 30 minutes. We've both been here more than 10 years, so you can't actually believe I'd connect those two statements without actually saying so (I suspect it was your way of inventing something to rebuke, because that's happened a few times before). My remark about your mile-from-shore example was solely related to the fact that even when newbies ask about paddling on rivers, you immediately bring up the problem of self-rescue as if the shore is just too far away to allow the method that river paddlers actually employ (emptying the boat while standing in the shallows or on shore).
As far as kids making poor decisions, I get that, but what you didn't get on account of focusing on my comment about your "everything is the ocean" attitude, is that a kid (or adult) who capsizes 50 feet from shore will get there just the same whether he's a reasonably good swimmer or a triathlete.
Ideally Two Miles in 1.5 Hours
Since only 5% of paddling grownups can swim. At least there will be some kids around, on a kayak, who might save them, as I have witnessed a few times. No “nonsense,” just lucky.
We’re Lucky So Far
This site is viewed worldwide, with each of us having our own unique frame of reference, which we occasionally share here. Thank goodness, the pond, creek, river, lake and ocean can accommodate us all?
Forgedaboutit…
– Last Updated: Dec-19-15 10:22 AM EST –
My comments are based on a combination of experiences, including time spent as a counselor at a summer day camp and with younger kids as peers in a variety of swimming situations. The first time I swam to a kid to rescue them was when I was at most 7 years old. I was actually too young to realize that I should have called for help. I did what came naturally and started dog paddling towards the very young child lying face down in the water about 6 inches from the edge of the pool. I saw the kid go into the water on purpose, not realizing they needed to swim.
Happily an adult spotted things quickly and go the child out of the water. I didn't know what I was going to do once I got there - I just started towards the kid without thought.
There have been other incidents where I got to use a piece of my old junior life saving training over the years. Nothing quite as dramatic because I got in early, but enough to leave me no assumptions when it comes to kids in the water.
People tend to assume that kids who have some swimming ability are small adults in their response to a problem. I have some history saying I can't agree with that, even if things happen very close to shore or in shallow water. But that is just my opinion.
we all have had experiences
– Last Updated: Dec-19-15 11:12 AM EST –
I worked with children at a camp as a junior and senior counselor for 7 years. Part of that time was instructing beginning swimming and lifeguarding. Swim area and program was set up to encourage progression and most kids could master a sidestroke, breast stroke and front crawl and a few learned the butterfly stroke. To reach the top level one had to swim across the lake.
Counselors had to be trained to take a canoe either by themselves or with children. Children had to be a certain age and show aptitude before taking a paddle and only the oldest kids were allowed out without a counselor. The camp was sponsored by a national organization and still exists today.
No child was ever required to swim 2 miles in 1.5 hours in order to be allowed to canoe. Somehow their liability concerns didn't prevent them from doing so. We had not one single casualty from capsizes or anything else related to boating.
hate to tell you this
1. One size is not a good solution.
2. You actually CAN save someone else in the ocean without having first met your arbitrary swim distance/time criteria. Think about it.
Two canoes
My reading of the topic is that it is a question about two canoes vs. two tandem sea kayaks.
I’d vote strongly for two canoes – 36" wide models that are ever popular and retain value, such as the 16’ Mad River Explorer. You can put a permanent or temporary third seat in a tandem canoe, carry lots of stuff, people can move around and shift places, they are pretty stable, and they can be paddled solo quite easily from a middle seat or from the bow seat pointed backwards.
Tandem sea kayaks are not very popular. They are heavy, expensive and much harder to re-sell. They are much more limited in how you can configure the seating and the usage of the interior space.
Tandem canoes can be paddled with the sacred single stick or with sinful double blades.
When the kids get older and everyone is more experienced, you can make further changes as to what kind(s) of paddle craft(s) are then most useful and fun for the family.
Oh, about safety. Since driving to the water is far more dangerous than paddling on it, the official policy of all paddling sites is that your canoe or kayak vehicle must be an M1 Abrams tank.
And who is this in reply to…?
2 miles is 1.5 hours was not in any of my posts - just the general idea that asking kids for a more rather than less compared to adults is OK. Since probably fairly few adults could do that, I think that this part of your reply is about Clyde, not me.
I had fairly specific requirements to meet at camp when I was a kid to be able to take out a canoe, not that distance because the pond itself wasn’t that big. But even with a decent swimming background, there were a couple of elements I had to do twice to pass. Though one was not really swimming, I was 30 seconds too slow my first time at jumping in fully clothed and stripping and turning your jeans into a life-preserver of sorts.
canoes
Do not tell Canadians that paddling canoes on the ocean is a bad idea. PNW Indians have hunted whales in the open ocean for centuries in dugout cedar canoes.
your logic is sound.
canoes
Big difference between what was a professional mariner, the indians living in the pacific northwest fishing for subsistence and a recreational paddler.
A professional mariner can make a truely poor choice in a boat safe for given waters, doesn’t in any way make it safe for recreational use.
Bill H.
Our limited experience
We raised three boys from ages 8,7,1 during a time when I was selling canoes and so had the opportunity to try many combinations. The optimum for us was two canoes for parent-child combos plus a small solo canoe or kayak for the oldest boy when he turned 13 or so. The best canoe combo for us was one Royalex Mad River Explorer and one Mad River Malecite. That allowed my 100 pound wife to paddle with the biggest boy in a speedy, low-cut “day cruiser” and allowed me to carry the other two, dog, and most gear in the slower Explorer. When the youngest was big enough to paddle bow with me, the oldest graduated to our 13’ solo and we went with 3 boats. As kids get older they get even more bored with sitting in the bottom of the boat.
As for safety, Pick your time and place wisely. My class 2-3 paddling was something I did with other men. We went family style when water temperature and challeng level made an unplanned swim reasonably safe. Pay attention to the wind, you will not have a lot of paddle power. We used two Malecites for some of those years. If you are not carrying camping gear and are not big people, smaller is better.
canoe?
This is a long complicated discussion until you get to load hauling. Then canoes are superior.
Get
two Saturn Ocean Pro 14’ inflatables. They are safe on the water (as in difficult to flip), paddle very well, high quality inflatables at a great price ($600. each), and paddle as well as a sit on top. Lots of room, high pressure floor that’s designed to ride a bit above the water for better speed, good glide (2 skegs), weigh about 36lbs, and can inflate in 8-10 minutes with included hand pump. Easily the best inflatable I’ve paddled and this includes the Aire Sawtooth which is excellent, but a single only.
http://www.boatstogo.com/inflatable-kayaks.asp