simple is as simple does
to quote a great philosopher…if i edge hard to the right and paddle right to turn left, i turn left… if i slam a hard left rudder on while leaning right to make a sharp left turn then i’m turning left. one technique keeps me moving, the other kills my momentum. so guess which turn is skidding and which is carving in my humble mind. leaning to the inside while paddling is simply carving. i guess for me its about whether i am paddling forward or not to make the turn.
My opinion
– Last Updated: Sep-02-08 5:03 PM EST –
Interesting discussion. My $000.02...
Outside edge => skidded turn; inside edge => carved turn.
More detail. First, I meant sea kayaks, aka longboats, turned without a rudder. I know very little about short boats, and they may well be different. Second, I agree with the slalom coach that this is mainly a theoretical bon bon. Yet it's useful to understand boat dynamics. Third, an inside edge, the so-called low brace turn as taught in various curricula on flat, still water is not very useful in itself. It's really more for breaking into current or turning downwind in a significant breeze.
Next, definitions. I agree with kayakernj... in a skidded turn, the boat pivots around a point well forward toward the bow, so the stern skids across and outside the curve of the turn, leaving a distinct, wide, smeared wake. In a carved turn, the boat pivots more or less about the fore-aft center, and the bow and stern slide about equally. You could say the bow and stern stay in line with the curve of the turn, but strictly speaking a boat would have to bend like a ski for that to happen.
Finally, the conclusion -- edge outside, and you get a skidded turn, which is relatively sharp. Lean forward and/or plant a paddle forward on the inside (aka bow rudder), the bow is "pinned" even more, the skid greater, and the turn sharper. Edge inside and you get a carved turn, not as sharp as the skidded turn.
Why am I so sure? I've looked at it with others -- we perform the various turns and observe each other's trajectories and wakes. That's what we see!
Why does it work that way -- discussion for another day.
Finally, why do so many excellent coaches get it backwards (I know of several)? Hypothesis -- they are thinking of skiing, where the most elegant, efficient turn is a carve rather than a skid. But boats don't flex like skis, liquid water is very different than snow, etc etc.
OK, fire away.
bang,bang
I couldn’t resist.
steve
Is that the sound of
your head as you slam it onto the computer monitor in frustration?
Huh?
– Last Updated: Sep-02-08 7:38 PM EST –
I always thought of carving as turning using your inside edge, just like skiers and surfers. Not relying on your yaw inertia or releasing the "bite" so much as having your edge actually "dig in" against centripetal force and following an arc. Carving to the outside of a turn (opposite direction of lean) seems quite counterintuitive. In every other sport I can think of, carving to the outside leads to intimate face time with the snow, water, etc. To me, turning in the direction opposite the lean is more about unsticking the hull from the water (creating a smaller water line) and pivoting.
That being said, some boats react in very counterintuitive ways. While attending a river canoing class, I kept having problems keeping the OC-1 I was in going straight at speed. However, I wasn't wallowing away from my paddle side, but battling a constant inside turn. As was explained, when approaching the hull speed, a subtle turn or lean can set up an asymmetrical bow wave that will perpetuate the turn. Once this turn was initiated, only a strong draw on my off side or slowing down would break it. On totally flat water, the boat would glide along beautiful arc until it slowed down (and spun out). Was I carving or sliding?
More importantly, what does it matter? I don't think cross bow draw, power stroke, etc... I just do it. If your boat goes where you want and you're having fun, who cares?
Phreon
Pragmatics over science
I doubt many paddlers (any form of paddle craft) have ever done a carved turn with no part of the boat skidding, what ever edge they are engaging.
Its a skid if the boat slids sideways. Its a carve if all the points of the edge/waterline of the boat travel through the same point on the arc.
One relies on releasing the boat from the lateral grip of the water. The other relies on the water pressurising part of the hull and stopping it from slipping sideways
As already stated a turn with more skid can re-orientate a kayak and scrubb off some speed, very usefull at times, however a lacks a little accuracy and can be hard to control, think driving on ice. A turn that is more carved will maintain speed while keeping the kayak turning accuratly even when other forces are trying to affect the turn, think train on tracks, also very useful at times.
Most paddle craft can be made to do a turn that is more carved than skidded or more skidded than carved on either edge. It is very useful to be able to adjust this carve/skid continuum. The environment has as much to do with this as the boat/paddler etc. Some techniques are more effective in different boats or different situations.
In a sea kayak and canoe when I need a turn to be more carve than skid I generally use an outside edge turn, unless I have the power of a wave pushing me and the shape of the wave around my boat, then I can make some powerful curves on my inside edge. My white water kayak probably about 50/50.
And David, kayaks do not need to flex like skis in order to carve. They are already curved in various places.
bang, bang
yes…the sound of my head as it hits into the computer…
“The “Ya think” thing is obnoxious.”
it is? sorry, but you still have it wrong.
“I do see the effect you describe quite regularly but I wasn’t talking about that phenomena. Your example doesn’t illustrate an edged turn. It just illustrates that you need enough momentum for edging to produce a turn.”
enlighten me man…WHAT illustrates your ‘edged turn’ if my example doesn’t. someone is missing something here.
“You could have simply pointed out that I missed mentioning that you need momentum to have the effect I was talking about. That would have been useful but you chose to be obnoxious instead.”
and I still need to know what is the 'effect you was talking about"
try my ‘test’ and you’ll see that an edged boat will show no preference as to it’s course unless initiated.
-----------------------
Just to make it clear to other readers:
oh I’m sure they have it perfectly clear.
“bow sweep, YAW initiation, then edge, add paddle blade as needed. maybe I’m doing it wong???”
Which way do you edge?
does it matter? my point exactly. the boat doesn’t really give a rats @$$(Mariners excluded)which way you edge.
stevie headache
Splash, Splash
Hey Steve,
“bow sweep, YAW initiation, then edge, add paddle blade as needed” . . . absolutely agree with the only caveat being if I do a bow rudder to increase the turn on an inside edge I tend to go splashey, splashey. That’s why I tend to use an outer by habit to help with my upright orientation. Don’t much care beyond that what any of this is called.
friend of mine
went to a symposium at MDI last year and took a class in bracing and paddle strokes—he told me that the instructor—somebody relativly well known–told the class that the carved turns that he was teaching were nice but that once the water got rough, most paddlers wouldn’t use them anyway
Muddy the waters some
I was paddling my Manta Ray 14 on the Blackwater River in Florida. 2-3 mph constant current, no whitewater. Loaded with camping gear (450 lb. max capacity) with the bow loaded a little heavier than the stern. I’d come up on a quick turn in the river, hit a strong rudder, the bow would dig in and the stern would “skid” around. When I was headed the right direction, applied a sweep (or sometimes rudder) on the appropriate side and take off. Might not be good technique, but it was sure fun. Kinda like driving in the snow and using the skid to get you a tighter turning radius.
and it s not even winter…sigh.
gonna be a long one.
paul
Look at this
– Last Updated: Sep-04-08 11:11 AM EST –
Look at the "Carved Turns" section of this web site for an illustration.
http://www.kayakpaddling.net/
Choose "Paddling Basics" from the menu at the right and then choose "Carved turns".
Note that this is regarding sea kayaks (other boats might behave diffently).
Note that the kayak has to have enough forward momentum to "carve" a turn. (The effect may not be noticible at slow speeds.)
Typically, a turn in the desired direction is started with a sweep stroke while edging the boat low side to the stroke.
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One of the things that the edging (in a sea kayak) does is increase the "rocker" of the effective keel. Edging on one particular side makes turns in both directions easier. (The boat doesn't have to be moving forward for this effect to be observed.)
Another thing the edging (in many sea kayaks) does is cause the boat to tend to veer to the high side. The boat has to be moving for this effect to be observed. It's this "veering" that "carving" refers to. It's easy to demonstrate this effect (in many sea kayaks) on flat/calm water with no wind. In rough water, wind, etc, this veering is easly overwhelmed.
This veering effect (as Flatpick seems to say) may not matter much. Note that all that I am doing here is trying to explain what people are referring to when they talk about "carving". (I wonder if the term was adopted from surfing.) I am not recommending it nor am I saying that it is important.
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It's important not to get hung up on "one way" of doing stuff. There is a lot of variation in what works.
Yup
– Last Updated: Sep-04-08 11:03 AM EST –
"The "Ya think" thing is obnoxious."
it is? sorry, but you still have it wrong.
Maybe, but being obnoxious doesn't help you make your point. You also look like a bully to other people (I personally don't care).
What's really bizarre is that you went all "internet nazi" because of -one- word in what I said that wasn't really correct. Seems like a pretty trivial thing to go off the rails about.
Sure hope you don't behave this way towards people who pay you.
“Skidded” is a term almost never used
– Last Updated: Sep-04-08 12:19 PM EST –
in slalom racing circles, and seldom used in whitewater circles, at least in the Southeast. When I turn on my inside edge, I am carving. When I turn on my outside edge, I am actually carving as well, but that is how my boats are designed. I find skidding, that is, sliding sideways across the water surface, to be a usually useless or counterproductive action. So, I'm not sure what useful classification you hope to achieve in this thread.
I note that some are giving an example of skidding as spinning a boat on its axis. This is not a typical use of the term. We just say that we are spinning the boat.
Here is a link to Olympic slalom footage, where you can see people turning on the inside edge, the outside edge, and occasionally doing a pivot turn by deeply dousing the stern and rotating on the submerged stern to pivot. Note that these boats do NOT turn on their seam lines. They have prominent edges and rails, crucial to making quick turns while maintaining as much momentum as possible.
http://www.nbcolympics.com/video/player.html?assetid=cnuh-bj-sd23-081108-145502&channelcode=sportca
That’s all good, but regarding slalom
boats, actually their chines and sides are designed specifically for carving, that is, maintaining momentum in the axis of the boat while avoiding or reducing side slippage. A slalom paddler can carve on the inside or outside edge, but the outside edge is used more when the paddler wants to turn more abruptly.
Skid as a term . . .
I believe the first place I heard it for sea kayaking was in one of the old Nigel Foster videos. May just be a teaching term NF came up with that has kept on going.
It is used occasionally by whitewater
instructors and paddlers. It’s just that skidding is not usually something you want to do, whether you are turning on an inside edge or an outside edge. I have skidded into eddies so hard that I’ve slammed into a rock wall, but it’s the wrong way to do it. The goal is to read the eddy and enter it so that you carve up to where you want to come to rest, or carve up into the upstream slalom gate you have to pass through and exit.
Your funny.
Stuck in a deep rut but funny anyways.
'net nazi
DOOOOODE… that’s “you’re funny”
NOT “your funny”
where’d you larn ta spel?
steve