I am a lawyer, and I started our local
kayaking club. We have insurance through the ACA. Ultimately, anybody can sue anybody for anything. That is why we have insurance. We’re conservative with the risks we take on club events, we make sure everyone knows they are responsible for evaluating conditions for themselves and for their own safety. But we understand that anybody can sue anybody for anything and the risk is less being held liable than the cost of defense. A good waiver may not always prevent you from being sued, but I’d rather have one than not if I had to go to court about it. It is not accurate that they are worthless, but they aren’t bullet proof.
With regard to what is the REAL exposure, according to Pam Dillon at the ACA, only one kayaking club has ever actually been sued and that was the result of a car accident where the club car-pooled somewhere and the driver fell asleep at the wheel. The suit came from the driver of the other car. So in my opinion, fear of being sued is not a reason to avoid participating. But, like Sing said, clubs aren’t for everyone.
The reason for belonging to a club? Not all of us got into kayaking with “buds”. Some of us got into kayaking and then had to find “buds” who shared our interest. A club is one way to do that.
Everything I have said here is my own personal opinion, and not to be construed as legal advice. So please don’t join a club, get sued and then sue me because I told you it was okay.
Live free or die
I'm the secretary of ConnYak (CT Sea Kayakers) which might be the largest club in the U.S. with 400+ members. At one time we belonged to the ACA and had higher dues and supposedly were covered by them. Then prices went up and the bookwork and management of all this nonsense turned it all into a nausating chore.
We then hired a lawyer for a meeting describing all our libialities. Bottom line is, yes, as you stated, anybody can sue anybody for anything. And the lawyer will go after those with the deepest pockets. Forget who is the group leader - it doesn't matter.
We have a waiver you sign up to join the club and our dues are only $15. We too post no leaders and operate with the paddle at your own risk stuff.
We just had to come to the conclusion that you can live in fear and do nothing in life or enjoy yourself and share the opportunities with others. That's the route we went and never had a problem. If we listened to lawers or lived in fear, there would never be a CT Kayaking Club.
http://connyak.org
What about USCA insurance?
I’m secretary of the GA Canoeing Assn and we like the CT Sea Kayakers have been concerned with rising ACA costs. We do all sorts of paddling from sea kayak trips, whitewater and flatwater trips. We still use ACA insurance for training and whitewater events, but I recently learned of USCA’s insurance coverage. We are using USCA insurance for three of our flatwater - class I river trips that are for novices and non-club members. The USCA is cheaper so I’m wondering what others think of their insurance? I know it might not be the best fit for all types of paddling (ww over Class II and sea kayaking), but what about flat-water paddling on lakes and rives. I’m curious as to other club’s experiences.
Reflects my advice to GCA---- Get a
one-time waiver signature when a member joins, if you feel you have to use waivers. That worked for me. But when GCA insisted we get waivers from each person, each time, for each trip, that was when reason went out in the bailing bucket.
Lifetime GCA member.
Because few of us have clubs like that!
Not even close.
agree w/ Dr. Disco
Part of what attracted me to paddling years ago was the lack of this sort of stuff. The minute someone wanted to bring “club officers” and the legal system into it, they all looked around and I saw that I was gone.
Backward risk assessment maybe?
“paddling (ww over Class II and sea kayaking)”
Within this, the people involved are usually not beginners, have basic understanding of the risks, etc. As a group - far less likely to sue.
“flat-water paddling on lakes and rives”
More beginners - without a clue - and so less likely to understand the risks and take personal responsibility. More likely as a group to sue.
No evidence on this - just my gut feeling. Of course - most cases are filed by family members or other insurance companies - so the above may not matter.
I have little worry going out with other sea kayakers who have basic self rescue skills. No one is looking to me for anything. We all help each other of needed - but it rarely is.
I avoid group paddles with rec boats/lily dippers/newbies like the plague - someone might seem me as more experienced or able to shepherd them - rather that thinking for and relying on themselves. No thanks.
A related story: A Yahoo meet up type group a couple weeks ago (about 8 - mostly beginners) decided to go in and out of Port Everglades. The port can be calm, or decidedly not so - and changes in seconds. One guy dumped a large cockpit/no skirt kayak and was unable to self rescue - and was in the way of a tug towing a barge - 5 whistle blasts - YIKES! - and then a quick thinking tow boat operator with sailboat in tow(!) gunned it and pulled this guy out.
There is SO much wrong with this incident (at least as I heard it) my head reels. The organizer (even though it was a show and go these are being actively promoted - and if you ask who’s running the show they all point to him) should have more skills/sense and known better than to take these people there - should have kept them clear of the channels - should have been able to assist - etc.
Scary part is I think they all sort of laughed it off, but the guy could have been killed - and this needless incident nearly disrupted operations in a major port (where I paddle regularly and would like to continue to be able to do so) - and could have lead to a wider accident involving other vessels.
I later spoke with the guy who capsized (before I heard above details elsewhere), and he mentioned it but didn’t seem to think it was serious - even though he could not self rescue (and knew this before hand. I think he considers himself intermediate. Also no spring chicken - and has an artificial knee which is why he uses a large cockpit boat and no skirt) and others in the group couldn’t help - and was out of his kayak and adrift in a very busy port with high traffic of all shapes and sizes.
I’m glad I didn’t know the details at this chance meeting this gentleman, or the “organizer”, and I would have had a chat. I’m even more glad I don’t seek out groups like this to paddle with, and particularly glad I wasn’t with that group or anywhere near in the port that day.
Do I have a selfish attitude? You bet! Would I have assisted if there? Of course - but it may have only made things worse - and certainly made me at least partially liable if things had gone badly.
Maybe it was nothing, and the story I got overblown - but the second hand account matched with this guy’s more casual telling. Something that ended OK could have easily turned into a fatal accident and litigation nightmare involving several private, commercial, and government concerns - and having repercussions throughout the paddling community.
The day I met the guy - they were beginning another Yahoo meet up type paddle with a larger group - many beginners and even first timers. Quieter waters this time. Thought I’d be slightly more social than usual and hang out talk to some of them as they got ready to launch (at a favored rolling practice spot - where I was doing so as they unloaded). Then as they left I trailed a bit - and not 100 yards into the paddle a girl got hung up under a bridge when current spun her around and sucked her against a wall. She got going again OK with - but good thing she didn’t dump there. Lots of underwater stuff and very sharp oysters everywhere. Afterward she had serious difficulty making headway. Enough that I would have clipped on and towed her a ways if I’d had my rig…
Anyway - Like I said, I avoid these groups like the plague. Call me elitist/antisocial/whatever. I’m fine with that.
Sure it would be nice to meet more paddlers and share more things, and really fun to introduce new people to paddling, but these recent event have reminded me why most of the time I paddle alone, or stick to small groups with a bit more self sufficient individuals, and just wave to the rest as I paddle by.
Getting back insurance question
The trips we are taking the novies down are very easy rivers especially compared to serious N.GA whitewater. I guess the term “easy” depends on your perspective. From a whitewater point of view, the rivers we will take these folks down are beginner flatwater rivers.
We are trying to get folks into the sport of paddling. We will have several experienced trained safety boaters on the trip. Most of the safety boaters are class III and above level boaters and some of them are ACA certified instructors.
As for rec kayaks, I think they are great boats for running long stretches of river with mild rapids below class II especially when the river is mostly flat, but have several easy rapids. Long sea kayaks would be a pain to negotiate some of these tight technical ledges on N. GA rivers. Whitewater boats are pain in the long flat water sections…so rec kayaks are perfect boat for piedmont river running. In fact, I take my rec boat out on the non-whitewater river runs in N. Ga. Plus, my rec boat is lighter and easier to deal with than my heavy sea kayak.
I personally would like to see the sport of paddling grow and to do this I (and my club) are willing to take novices down gentle rivers. Hopefully, they will get hooked on the sport.
I got into paddling by joining a club and now I own 6 kayaks ranging from ww boats, sea kayak and an ICF k-1. I do just about every kind of paddling and I love it.
Besides I thought this thread was about insurance and liability not about the merits of clubs.
this will probably not be taken well but
… I really have no interest in seeing the sport of paddling grow. It’s growing plenty fast as it is. More people means more problems and less solitude.
(But if I were a seller of paddle stuff, I’m sure I’d feel differently)
Do the buses in Europe have kayak…
racks?
Dogmaticus
Excellent post!
Dogmaticus
Depends on the club
The club I used to belong to had none of the things you list, not even many interested paddlers.
But I’ve been to a few other clubs’ websites and noticed differences. One feature that would truly be a club advantage–if it’s a big, active club–is that they can attract “name” speakers to give talks and slide shows. They have the numbers to make things happen; informal groups tend to be smaller and don’t.
I own my gear and have no problem whatsoever motivating myself to go paddle, alone or otherwise. For me, a lackadaisical club is of no use. But it might be helpful for some.
Greyak, your story is exactly the reason
I’m a fan of clubs. But as Pikeabike says, it depends on the club. The club I belong to is quite active, has a good number of skilled paddlers, and focuses a lot on skill development and safety. I would have had a much more difficult (and dangerous) road to becoming a competent paddler without it. And now I give back what I got and have lots of “buds” to paddle with on both club and non-club events.
Some seem compelled…
… to get others into whatever they are into.
I’m not one of them. I just don’t think paddling’s for everyone or that it’s up to me to get people into it. No one got me into it - it was just something I’d wanted to do for a while and was finally able to try easily after moving to FL.
I’m more than happy to talk about kayaking with anyone interested, and it’s nice to share my love of it on or off water - but have no need to make converts or grow the sport. Never would think of asking co-workers, etc. They all know I paddle - and all could care less.
My girlfriend paddles a bit, but I never suggested she try it. She saw me enjoying it for quite a while before showing any interest. I’ve let that follow whatever direction she wants to go with it. It doesn’t matter to me if she paddles or not - or how often - or at what level.
And yes, I do think the paddling evangelists can complicate the liability issue, and so this all relates to the thread.
… or
"paddling evangilists" along with lots and lots of new paddlers taking to all kinds of waeter will more likely simplify the liability issue over time. (pause, wait for the “aha” reaction … yep, there it is, … you get it)
If you are not a lawyer you should be
one of the best descriptions of negligence I have ever read.
More possibilities
I would definitely be interested in joining a club of motivated, active paddlers. While there are some people I can call up to go paddling, it’s not quite the same as being in an active club that has “fresh blood” joining as time goes on. I mean, I’m not going to stick a sign on my truck that says, “I’m a kayaker. Call xxx-xxxx if you wanna go paddling”.
Personality plays a role, too–good partners aren’t just about owning a kayak (as sing alludes to).
A club doesn’t replace informal paddle outings, it supplements them. Sometimes it’s good to be pushed out of a rut.
Wat we do is…
In aar club, wat we do if someone gits hurt is - we dispatch dem ta their maker fast, divy up their equipment an' eat dem to get rid of de body. Never saw dem!
Actually, de club ah' belong ta is also right in de middle of this insurance fiasco. Can't really find anyone who will underwrite a policy for our 450 member club.
FE