Old post on width
http://www.paddling.net/message/showThread.html?fid=advice&tid=1714385#1714904
my specs
Thanks for the link regarding width. I found out a few things. I like the idea of “Canadian style” paddling in theory, but I wouldn’t want to do it.
I paddle the guide 147 from the rear, and haven’t ever even considered paddling it from the center, given it’s wide beam.
I stand 5’6", and weigh 160. This is with “generous padding”. My ideal weight is closer to 140.
I wouldn’t want to kneel exclusively for paddling, and wonder if the kestrel is too tender to for sitting. Thanks for the replies so far, they’ve been very helpful.
Vagabond vs Wilderness
"…I don’t want to bash the Vagabond too much, but in waves, it’s totally out of its element. I’d expect the same problem with the Wilderness, but probably to a lesser degree since it’s a bigger boat…"
I’ve owned a Vagabond and currently paddle a Wilderness. I agree with your observations regarding the Vagabond and waves but the Wilderness is a completely different boat on active water and bigger lake chop. Its much more sea worthy than I was expecting. I’ve had mine on some pretty big stuff on Yellowstone lake and just recently on Jackson lake in the Tetons. The boat has done well enough that I’m now investing in a North Water spray deck for the Wilderness to help mitigate the windy conditions I often find myself in here in Wyoming. I would never consider paddling a Vagabond in such conditions and I’m quite a fan of both the Vagabond and the little Sandpiper.
Is it the case that Wenonah plans for
wavy lake conditions mainly by deepening the ends, but without a lot of attention to flaring the hull?
A lot of Wenonah’s I’ve seen are just sort of straight up and down, or with a sponson bubble on the side, like the Rendezvous.
The Kestrel would be fine
for you in theory… While you can lower the seat, kneeling is the best option and with a low seat of course you can’t.
However gear firms it up nicely…
But you really have to try to see if you are comfortable making that quantum leap.
Back up a little…
While you are getting all this great info on solo canoes from people who have the knowledge, we need to point out that your stated objective of carrying a passenger “in a pinch” is probably not a reasonable expectation.
I can’t think of any dedicated high-performance solo canoe that I would attempt to paddle with another person on board for more than a quick trip across a shallow pond. Even then, I would expect to get wet.
I have heard of people going two-up in things like the OT Pack, but I wouldn’t consider that even close to the class of boat you are seeking. There are several small tandems that can be paddled solo pretty well, but they are more than a handful in the wind and waves. Do-able, but not the ideal.
This is why we tend to have multiple boats. By all means - if most of your paddling will be solo, get yourself a solo canoe. But you will also want a tandem for other uses. Lots of decent tandems on the used market. Solo canoes…not so much.
I have a Hemlock SRT
It is my primary canoe of my many since I got it five years ago.
I have written a detailed review of it in the reviews section of this site.
I personally favor deep canoes. Part of that is my strong whitewater background before I became interested in flatwater solo sport canoes. Solo whitewater canoes are at least 15" deep. In flatwater, I find the security of a deep hull in waves, especially when laden with gear, outweighs any extra windage cause by the hull depth.
However, you will not be fishing from a seated position in the SRT – unless you are a member of the Wallenda family. Or, at least, I won’t.
The SRT and Kestrel are much different boats. Conk, a poster here, has both. You can also just talk to Dave Curtis. I have always found him to be very honest and helpful in helping potential customers decide between his boats.
Socrates took Hemlock.
“In a pinch”
– Last Updated: Jul-01-14 7:38 PM EST –
I was going to address that earlier, but decided not to since it sounds like the OP has enough paddling experience to know the difference between what's do-able and what should be avoided, and he did finish up his post by mentioning how his current tandem fills a need, and a bigger tandem is likely in his future. Still, two lightweight people can make a good solo canoe fly, and for such people, short tandem "utility trips" in a solo work fine. I've done it lots of times. I weigh about 165, and when I've carried a passenger for short distances, it was always someone who weighed less than I.
Also, one time on the Wisconsin River, Rena was unable to make progress downstream against a strong headwind, so we towed her canoe and both of us paddled my Merlin II. I kneeled using the seat and she kneeled right behind me using the rear thwart, and we tossed some of our minimal gear up into the bow to help provide better trim (other gear was left in the towed canoe). Being that we were "in a pinch", it worked great. The miles flew by, and during that trip, that boat traveled at by far the fastest speed it ever did into such a strong headwind.
Very few people my age carry less than 60 or 70 pounds of extra weight that they didn't have on them when they were young (often it's a lot more than that), so for average people, your advice is probably spot-on. For lighter folks, tandem paddling of a solo canoe "in a pinch" works far better than I ever imagined it would.
well, then the SRT is out
– Last Updated: Jul-02-14 1:46 PM EST –
Not being able to sit in a canoe for fishing is a deal breaker. So, I guess the SRT is out of the running. I wonder how the kestrel, with the seat at the factory height, would be for this. I might contact the member mentioned. thanks.
I tried searching this forum using the "search" feature for "kestrel", and only came up with this thread. however, i used a search engine to find another paddling thread relating to the kestrel:
http://www.paddling.net/message/showThread.html?fid=advice&tid=1177918
I'm struck by two things: first, it seems that the kestrel is similar to the placid rapidfire. Second, and more importantly, this was said in the kestrel thread:
"I believe it would be inconvenient to fish out of any of the modern solo touring canoes, for they are mainly designed to paddle not to serve as platforms for other forms of recreation. I also think it would be inconvenient to make out in the back seat of a Ford Mustang. However, I believe motivated people have endured both of these inconveniences."
someone else mentioned large fish going under the boat as a potential problem (what's large, though?).
but then, there's this counterpoint:
With the stock seat raised to the rails it was very difficult to handle larger fish in the sitting position. I have added some nylon spacers to move the seat down an inch. that and kneeling when a big one strikes or when trolling in deeper water makes the Kestrel a great fishing platform for me. The added benefit that it's fun to paddle and trip out of is a bonus.
any comments on any of this?
Probably so…
the bow of the Wilderness is noticeably higher but I think the biggest reason it doesn’t spear waves like the Vagabond is the tumblehome/bilge extends farther towards the bow and stern. I haven’t had the two boats together for a side-by-side but I paddled the Vagabond for years and remember it quite well. I believe the Wilderness has more tumblehome than the Vagabond but I’m not positive on that point.
I liked the Vagabond but it was a fair weather boat. The Wilderness has been a pleasant surprise, enough so I owned two of them - an RX model and a TuffWeave. Recently sold the RX as I needed to free up some space.
tradeoff
– Last Updated: Jul-02-14 1:45 PM EST –
As you reduce the beam to make paddling more efficient, you usually sacrifice stability. The best compromise will vary with paddler size, skill, and mission. Boats intended for fishing tend to be on the stable-but-slower end of the range.
That said, I have happily fished from a 22" beam sea kayak, which is a far cry from the beamy sit-on-tops and rec kayaks typically sold as "fishing kayaks" It does require good balance and attention. A healthy smallmouth abeam can be exciting when it decides to go under your keel. I suspect that fishing from something like a Kestrel would be much the same.
Your best bet would be to rent/borrow/demo a solo similar to the ones you're considering. Someone here might be able to help you with that.
another idea
On my Kestrel I fastened the seat in with wing nuts, and for rough water, like a big lake crossing, removed it and sat on the floor-real stable. (I’m a wuss in waves). It’s a bother, but you have the best of both worlds. I didn’t do this while on the water.
Turtle
Depends…
…on your size, your sense of balance, and how loose your hips are, I guess. I have no problem fishing from my Dagger Sojourn, even in waves - but, I managed okay in the back seat of my '65 Mustang too…
hips?
I’ve heard reference to this. what does hip “looseness” have to do with anything? is it just a question of adjusting one’s center of gravity?
hip looseness
means an ability to roll with the waves… Stiffen up whether sitting or kneeling and your head is more apt to wind up outside the gunwales.
And that is how many dunks start. Its the same for canoeing or kayaking.
Loose hips save ships
Think of the kneeling position as an inverted “Y”. If you’re rigid, a fairly small tilt will put your head and upper body outside your knee. Swimming soon follows.
If you’re loose in the hips – the intersection of the inverted “Y” – your torso can stay centered in the boat as it rolls under you.
That’s what I tell every new paddler.
The visual demonstration I provide usually results with chuckles, but it sticks in their memory.
Big Yard
There is a lot of grass between a Wenonah Vag and a Hemlock SRT.
The STR is ~ narrow, 28.5 max beam, and has a roundish bottom. There are a couple narrower solos and a handful as narrow. None are applicable to a sitting fisher with a 10 pound northern on a line. You will join your fish in it’s environment.
The Vag is flat bottomed and without rocker. In between the two lies almost every other solo canoe in the marketplace.
You need something 29-30 inches wide with a flat or elliptical bottom. Differential rocker would be helpful. It helps both tracking and turning. Lots of better choices between the two suggested. Lots of builders beyond the two suggested, some worse, some equal, some better.
I’ve a document covering dimensions of almost every solo canoe made that may be helpful. Email me for an electronic copy.
If it’s a choice between two discounted and used boats, I’d prefer the SRT for performance and build quality, but it is never going to be a fisher’s boat. Fishers will prefer the Vagabond.
The Colden DragonFly would make a
wonderful boat for fishers wearing a snorkel… I’m putting a fair amount of time in it but pretty much paying attention to paddling.
Same for the Curtis Dragonfly… Unless you have a stash of lead weights that is…and remember lead is a no no now.