c2c
The C2C works for some, but requires a little more strength and flexibility than a sweep roll, and doesn’t work as well with slower rolling sea boats.
Flexibility is my Achilles heel…
When I am warm and loose, rolling is easy. Cold and stiff, it gets scary. I find that stretching in the boat on dry land helps a lot, even when I have no plans to get in the water. 623 (?) muscles, exponentially more ranges of motion, and nothing puts them in the same position as a kayak. I bend from side to side, forward and backward, twist, etc. often before I start my morning commute. 59 years old and fighting premature rigor mortise.
Try this
A. If your paddle is diving, you need to relax your grip!
B. Start rolling the kayak (= hip-snap/knee pressure) immediately, as soon as you start the sweep. Don’t wait until the paddle is on the side.
Just repeating what they say in the old CD-Rom I use.
…
This year, I did my first rolls in July, as local water was still too cold for me, I waited until I could make an trip in warmer waters. The boat was loaded, and I missed 2 times on my weak side. I was disappointed, as I had done some swimming pool practice in winter and everything was alright on both sides with any kind of paddle (wing seems nice for sweep roll).
So I had to go back to my list, which is
- correct pre-roll position (upside down, paddle flat on the surface, not too much forward leaning, applying pressure with opposite knee to stay inthis bent body position)
- relax hands grip on the paddle!
- the roll starts with a forthright pressure of the knee ( or hip snap if you prefer! together with the the sweep itself, body extension/rotation, obviously the rolling knee is not the one used to stay in the start position, so the roll begins with change of knee apllying pressure against the coating)
- keep head down!
- finish position (looking toward active hand, opposite wrist near the chin and slightly rotated upward) here you can still brace a bit by pulling the paddle, if needed
Seems a bit confused? Sorry, english is not my primary language! And no way to remember all this if you have to roll after an unexpected capsize!
But after some practice, once it’s working nicely, it’s more straightforward: start position, just think to going to finish position… and roll!
Doing uninterrupted series of rolls, like 3 each side, or more if you like it, seems good for body learning, and probably good practice for real conditions.
Diving paddle
– Last Updated: Aug-27-12 11:10 AM EST –
Assuming that the paddle is flat on the surface at roll start, in my experience the main cause of a diving paddle is the fact that the shoulders aren't square to the surface of the water just like is required for the scull or balance brace. Make sure that you are looking up at the surface with both shoulders parallel to the waters surface as much as possible. If the forward shoulder is lower and you are looking down instead of up, the paddle will dive. This is in part a flexibility issue and in part an issue of technique. Relax and get set to move into a scull/balance brace by initiating boat movement as the paddle sweeps forward and your body rises to the surface, looking up with shoulders square, the inboard hand pinned to the aft shoulder and the outboard (control) hand keeping the paddle parallel to the body as you sweep to the surface and then on to the back deck. Can't emphasize enough how the diving paddle is driven by dropping the lead shoulder and how easy it is to correct by focusing on keeping the shoulders square to the surface and looking up all the way through the roll from setup to finish.
well said
You put it much more intuitively than I did. Well said. Keeping shoulders square is a key.
non-sweep arrm
very often for me and some I’ve watched a diving blade had more to do with the non-sweeping arm. It needs to stay close to your body. If you accidentally do what I call the chicken wing you end up pushing up with the non-sweep arm which puts the whole paddle in a diving direction. One training trick for this is to put a small ball or such under your upper arm on the non-sweep side and hold it there while rolling.
A lesser cause for me at times has been not “kissing the deck” enough on my setup which doesn’t allow the sweep blade to clear the water.
Loosing your roll
I don’t think anyone could roll with that list you’re trying to do.
Since you rolled for a long time and lost it, you are trying too hard. What style roll? Lay back, side hip snap or what? With the GP the lay back is the easiest. Wear a dive mask so you feel comfortable and can watch your paddle. Think of yourself as made of rubber - totally flexible and relaxed. As soon as you are over and on the other side, sweep the paddle out without pulling on it (in desperation), lay back and twist yourself up. (head up last) Don’t over analyze.
I’ve seen some videos where the sweep and using that to bring yourself up is what they teach. You might be trying to do that but leveraging on the paddle to much rather than using your body to twist the boat. That would be one reason for the diving paddle. Any style you use, you’re best off being relaxed and flexible as possible with your body. Try to enter the water with that mind set. Good luck. As others said, if someone could watch you they might straighten out your problem is seconds.
continuing roll frustration
rotate your wrists backwards or towards your body in the setup before you capsize. don’t think too much about it, just try it. taught to me by whitewater and sea kayaker Reg Lake.
or do research in your area for a reputable rolling instructor. for example here in the PNW body boat blade and the above mentioned reg lake will help you solve your issue immediately.
many do tend to over think it. i’m not even sure if i use hip movement at all, just a nice non diving sweep - relax…
Neighbor’s Lost Roll
When my neighbor lost his roll I caught him foregoing any sweep at all. I pointed out that he’d get more leverage if he swung his paddle out a little further from his boat before he tried to come up. Keep in mind this guy has ONE roll. If I had to give it a name I’d call it a screw roll. Bottom line is he got his roll back.
Start position & loosening the grip
I agree with that, and I think the most easy way to have your shoulders parallel to the surface is to bend to your side WITHOUT LEANING FORWARD too much (start position).
But again, if the paddle dives, loosen your grip. Or, as another board member said, “not muscling your paddle”. It always works with me! You don’t want to release the paddle, but do not tighten your grip on the shaft too much. It helps for this kind of roll.
Rotate which way?
“Rotate the wrists toward your body”, I’m not sure that is clear. Rotating them back toward your head would make the paddle dive, eh? Rotate away to make it climb.
Alan
interesting approach
While I don’t think much about it now I’m pretty sure I started with wrists rotated away a bit then as I sweep they gradually rotate back.
Instruction or Help
Have someone watch and tell you what you are doing. Often, very subtle things will cause an inconsistency and they are often easy to correct. An instructor will find and correct them very quickly, but anyone who has a good knowledge of rolling should be able to help you at poolside.
Had similar problem
I can imagine how frustrated you must feel. I had a similar problem. I know how to roll. I teach rolling. I can roll up when I’m in the rocks. But I lost any consistency about a year ago.
Finally, at the recommendation of a paddling buddy, I paid for an hour-long private lesson two weekends ago, and last weekend I didn’t miss a single roll. The coach I worked with (Carl Ladd of Osprey in Westport, MA) analyzed what I was doing wrong and gave me two things to work on (offside hand at the chin and eye on the blade). It worked!
Generally if you’ve rolled in the past, you’ve got most of it, you just need to fine-tune it with a good coach, who can identify the crucial factors and narrow the coaching down to one or two specific points. Your points may be different from mine, but spend the extra money on private coaching. It’s worth every penny.
"offside hand at the chin"
I think this is way more common an issue than most realize. It’s part of the general idea that the non-sweep arm (especially upper arm) shouldn’t go far from your body during the roll. If it does go far the non-sweep end goes up which forces the sweep end to dive. This is why I like the small rubber ball under the upper arm training trick.
Correct
That’s what I do, anyway.
loose
I have you 1st Roll video, which is very helpful. One thing missing: You show several instances of the paddle sweeping 90 deg entirely out of the water. I have not been able to do this, even when I don’t worry about coming up. I cannot just make my body loose, it is too old and stiff. But most of the time I come up anyway, but not easily or gracefully.
My issue as well
Interesting suggestion which I will try.
hope it helps
I first tried the ball under the arm as a test to see if I was letting my non-sweep arm pull away too far. I had it attached to a string and clipped on my PFD so it wouldn’t get away. But it turns out that feeling the ball under your arm sort of forces you to do what it takes to keep it there and so forces better form. As the muscle memory sets in then you can just use it now and then to guard against a relapse.
copy and paste…it works.