thanks
Thanks for all the good information.
River/Creek
– Last Updated: Dec-19-11 4:17 PM EST –
In the past year I've owned a 2011 LL Remix XP10, 2011 WS Diesel 80, 2011 LL Remix 79, and a 2012 Jackson Super Hero.
The Remix XP was nice, just too big and heavy for my taste, and we decided that we wanted to move more toward WW paddling.
I still have the Diesel 80, have run mostly Class I/II and some II+ rivers, I like the boat, but it can be edgy at times and if you're not paying attention you will be wet in a hurry.
Bought the Remix 79 for a great price used and really just bought it to try out and then most likely resell, which I did. It felt a lot like the Remix XP in a way, still too big for me and after being used to the planning hull of the Diesel, just didn't feel as good to me. I originally demoed a Remix 79 and the Diesel on the same day, and chose the Diesel due to its size and how it handled. My wife decide on a Diesel 60 and still likes it....guess it's a guy thing....I like collecting boats....I have a problem and I accept it :)!
Ended up giving my Diesel to my step son, since he wanted to start paddling with us (and it gave me an excuse to get a new boat.....again).
Can't really say much about the new Super Hero yet....other than it's really "pretty" :)! Haven't had time to get it out on the water yet, but I did demo an '09 model and it was everything I was looking for. Really forgiving, short, comfortable, sporty feeling, can carry decent speed for it's length, easy to roll (even though I was able to roll all of the above with no problems, the SH was rediculously easy). Feels like a good mix of what the Diesel and Remix have to offer, but with more comfort for me personally.
The Diesel, Remix and SH are all considered as river runner/creek boats, even though the manufactures also make dedicated "creek boats". The best I can tell, the dedicated creek boats are heavier (built more heavy duty, thicker plastic, sometimes sturdier center pillars, etc), have more rocker, and less edges to get caught up on rocks. It can be quite confusing, but the way I understand it, all of the boats I listed above are river runners that can be used for light or introductory creek running, yet still are predominately designed to be used on rivers. The dedicated creek boats are build safer for the more advanced paddlers and steep creeking applications, they don't track as well and won't be as enjoyable on river runs. I think the Super Hero is a good comprimise for what I'll mostly be using it for.....we shall see....maybe someday there will be a Villan or Stomper hanging in the garage with the rest of the "collection" :)!
Steep Creek’n
The part missing about creek boats is the adjective STEEP… this class of boat was always referred to as “Steep Creek” boat. Somewhere the Steep has been dropped.
So what’s the difference? Opinions will vary as many ways as there are creeks. I would say any creek, or river, with an average gradient over 100 feet per mile classifies as a steep creek.
Can you paddle a “river runner “ on a steep creek? Sometimes yes, sometimes not so well. Granted there are boaters out here who can paddle some wicked stuff in anything, but they are the exception.
So for examples lets take West Virginia. Two creeks: Big Sandy and Deckers. Both rated in the IV/V range and two different animals. Big Sandy averages like 80fpm with some concentrated areas in the 120fpm area. Deckers averages like 110-150 fpm. Big Sandy is more pool then drop, then pool. Deckers is constant and blind, many of the hazards like strainers and under cuts are not obvious. While there are places on the Big Sandy you don’t want to be upside down, there is room for error and if you have to roll you can. Deckers is not that forgiving, rolling is not an option. Upside down on Deckers almost guarantees hard impact. Even in a Steep Creek boat, to piton a rock is not unexpected.
I would like to point out that steep creeks don’t always fit into the river classification system very well when compared to other creeks or especially rivers with steep creek like gradients.
My personal experience has been that boats like the Remix and Diesel (I’ve owned both) don’t steep creek all that well. Both boats, even though I was paddling one size above my weight range, eventually turned into piton and pin festivals when the average gradients got steep. Right now I’m paddling a Prijon Pure and I’ve owned the Riot Magnum, Necky Blunt, Eskimo Diablo and Salto. All dam good steep creekers.
My advice for people just starting out is to buy something used that fits you well and is your favorite color. Paddle it and have fun.
As an after thought, my Prijon Pure surfs better than the Diesel or the Remix.
class IV+ drops
A Diesel is certainly fine for class IV drops. For above class IV, some would prefer a creeker
Weight matters
Paddler weight matters a lot more when you get into whitewater kayaks. The same boat will have very different characteristics with different paddlers because the amount of boat down in the water changes with weight. The hull shapoe also has a lot to do with the hanldling.
If you weight 120 lbs and but a Mamba 8.5, it is floating you so high it is going to perform a lot like a creek boat even though it’s labeled a river runner. If you are overwight for an Ammo, it’s probably going to feel more like a playboat than a ctraditional reeker. You can surf the biggest creekboats and you can run big drops in the smallest of playboats, so it somes down to what you want the boat to do.
For most people that aren’t doing creeky Class III+ and higher, I recommend a river runner or a river play to start out. The often have more initial stability than the round bottom, higly rockered creekers, they are reasonably fast and they aren’t as loose (and slow)as the rodeo boats. I think most people adapt to the river and river play boats more quickly. The Mamba and Axiom are good examples of what I mean when I say River Runner, The Fuse and Fun Sare nice River Play boats (many others, but these are ubiquitous).
A planing hull with some good edges is great for surfing and carving and throwing some tricks. A river play with a slicey stern can be great fun, but on big water, you find yourself stern squirting at the bottom of every other drop. River runners handle the drops much better, but they tend to stay flat on the water, so enders and vertical stuff is not easy in smaller waves. The lack of edge on the traditional creeker means it is very forgiving in most everything, but it also means that you can’t have the same level of control on a wave using edges – you’ll need paddle skills.
If you want a river runner that can do some creekeing, just make sure you are on the low end of it’s weight range and that the hull is what you want. Virtually every combination exists these days. The Ammo is a creeker with a playboat-like hull. If you want to mostly surf and get into vertical stuff a bit, the River Play boats are great and they can be very stable and forgiving as well. Just lean downstream…
Jim
235Lbs
Suggest a few River Runner boats for a good paddler with lots of open boat white water and tripping experience, just starting in Kayaks. Looking to run rivers in Class II III range in New England. Not looking to do much in the way of fancy play boat acrobatics.
It isn’t having no hull speed that makes
a boat willing to sit on small waves. It’s the nature and distribution of the rocker. My slalom boat will sit on small waves, because there’s a noticeable upward bend in the flat tail, just behind the cockpit. The long, narrow bow cuts through the upstream wave face, instead of scooping up over the wave like a playboat.
Where playboat shortness helps more is in throwing ends. But then, they aren’t worth much for those booming enders and pirouettes that used to be admired at rodeos.
As Dr. Disco said,
“Dagger Mamba series, Jackson hero series, Diesel series, Pyranha Burn series” and also the Remix 79. In all cases you will be looking at the largest size. These are great river runners where the designer(s) also had some creek boating in mind.
Example of a kayak that could (barely) float you, makes a wonderful river runner, but not for creeks: Dagger Axiom.
Usually to optimise river running, a designer will be borrowing slalom features, and the more like a slalom boat, the less like a steep creeker. So you have to choose something from the river runner menu with an eye to what you want to do when not just cruising rivers. I would choose the Axiom. I have never explored a small creek that can be called “steep.”
Thanks for that
I’ll start poking around and see if I can find something used.
Definitely go to boatertalk.com
There are lots of river runners for sale on gear swap there.
Green Boat
I see this boat. Does this work as a river boat? Not looking for a boat to do tricks with - might want to surf a little if the opportunity presents itself. Mostly just run down a river and catch eddies etc. Might also want to be able to paddle upstream a few miles and then run back down to the truck on some rivers. I am comfortable narrower sea kayaks.
all good
All good advise. I’m sure your all right I don’t need a creek boat., but was looking at the Liquid Logic Grand Jeffe, and the Remix 79… Thought they would both handle my weight good. I’m also looking at the Liquid Logic xp 10, but not sure thats the right boat. I want something that will handle up to class 3 easily. I have a loon 120 toruning boat now, and Just got my son a Jackson rougue 9.
JB
Vimeo
look up some footage of the Green River Race, you’ll see what the Green Boat is capable of. it’s heavy though
The XP10 is over 100 gals and has a roomy cockpit, so I would think it would be a great river runner for big guys. I tried a Dagger Approach 10 for awhile but it was too big for me at 185#
Boater talk
has a lot of used boats listed but hardly any up my way in New England/New York. Can anyone point me to some good sources for used boats up in the northeast?
old reviews
IMO, a typical creekboat isn’t as much fun as a typical river-runner in easier stuff. The features that help it stay upright in ugly stuff limit responsiveness in easier water.
Old reviews, but might help if you’re looking used.
http://nocpaddlingschool.blogspot.com/2008/04/2008-river-runnercreeker-boat-reviews.html
http://nocpaddlingschool.blogspot.com/2007/05/whats-best-beginner-boat.html
Quote:IMO, a typical creekboat isn’t as much fun as a typical river-runner in easier stuff. The features that help it stay upright in ugly stuff limit responsiveness in easier water. Quote:
Thats good to know… Thats kinda the info I was looking for. Maybe I should stick with the Remix 79, Xp and I’m now looking at the Fusion.
JB
This must be creeking;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FUy97V1S6Q
I’ll probably stick to river running -
Yep
That is creeking, pretty tight lines on the upper part of the run, and missing a boof is not good (verticle pin). That was mostly Class IV stuff, but there are a lot of rather fun Class III runs that are more open, but still creeky. I really like drop-pool creeky stuff with short rapids. Last trip on one of those it was about 18 easy Class IIIs – great fun even in a playboat.
Jim
After looking at the Green Boat hull,
and watching a guy try to play the Nanty in it, I think it’s mainly a steep creek racer and a ww cruiser, but is probably not as good a river runner as the old Pirouette.
I love long boats, but there are lots of things river runners need to do that a long kayak like the Green Boat is not suited for. Again, my functional test is that a good river runner should be at least a decent slalom boat, and the Green Boat isn’t.