If you
clear any on my section of river and haul them to the high water line I’ll buy refreshments.
getting back on topic …
Fish & game is a factor as they like the fish habitat that downed trees provide.
Around my neck of the woods they also recognize the needs of paddlers and tend to follow a live 'n let live policy, so long as too much is not removed – so we try to leave at least one-half and have had no problems.
Bottom line is that there are state laws pertaining to the destruction of fish habitat and beaver dams, so you’re damned if you don’t and it’s a crap shoot if you do.
follow up
reason i posted this is i would think it’s more of an intrusion of a landowner’s property to get off the kayak, set foot on his land, and portage around the obstruction (and remember, that would apply to everyone who goes down that section of the river), than it is to cut a small gap in the tree and pass through.
as far as i understand it, paddlers have the right to float through a river, even if it flows through private lands, if it’s deemed navigable through the “public trust” doctrine. however, private ownership applies to the streambeds so we can not get out, wade in the water to fish.
i guess that’s my other reason for the post. if we have the right to pass through, then who’s responsible for the trees that are blocking our passage?
If I can cut it from the boat
I will usually cut open a passage for the boat. I carry a small folding saw that will cut through decent sized branches, I don’t do the heavy work when it becomes easier to portage I usually do.
Cutting and removing debris
Here’s an interesting study that makes a case against cutting or removing fallen timber on one of my local paddling spots. http://tinyurl.com/yarmbp
I suppose it comes down to finding a balance between usage and ecology. I’d tend to err on the side of ecology myself. I don’t cut but the liveries sure do.
Yep…
Liveries do a lot of cutting on Ozark streams. Mostly they cut away the strainers in fast water that would pose a real danger to their clients, and will cut small sections out of trees blocking the stream in slow pools.
As I see it, there is no reason to cut out whole trees. Maybe cut a passage toward the end of the tree with small branches. If you can get around it without having to climb a high water bank, there is no reason to cut it. I like to have some obstructions on the smaller streams I often float, since it may serve to discourage other people from doing a repeat trip once they experience a lot of obstructions and have to work a little.
This year, however, there was a big, wide windstorm that blew down a LOT of trees across a wide swath of the eastern MO Ozarks. I “floated” a small creek a few weeks after the windstorm, and I knew when I planned the trip that it was going to be work, since the creek was flowing about 11 cfs and I’d have to walk almost all the riffles. But what I didn’t take into account was the hundreds of big tree limbs and whole trees that were obstructing the creek. I was one tired puppy at the end of that day, and I would have welcomed somebody cutting some of those trees.
Thats great!
In the past, I’ve sometimes put in the Pax river over by Governers Bridge Road in Bowie. Last year the river was so badly choked with trees that I couldn’t get very far. I haven’t been back since.
Cut it, float it out, build a boat.
is it really this bad?
what has the world come to when people feel they need to ask others if it is ok to clear fallen trees? Just cut the things out of the way.
according to the DEC officer
i asked the local (NY) dept of enviromental conservation officer on this matter and this is what he has to say:
The “riparian rights” or the rights of property owners that border or include water is very complicated. The answers I have provided are general in nature and accordingly you should take no actions based on my guidance but you may need to seek the services of a lawyer experience in real property matters.
Question 1. Is it legal to cut a section away to allow kayaks to pass? Isn’t that a form of “trail maintenance”?
-trees that fall into the water from storm or other natural causes are real property that belong to the adjacent property owner and you can not cut or remove any tree without the permission of the owner.
2. Does land ownership apply to a river? In other words, can a landowner block people from floating down his section of the river?
-navigable waters belong to the state of New York and the right of a boater to navigate those waters can not be intentionally blocked or infringed upon. For instance a land owner can’t build a dock that blocks navigation. However the land on the bottom of many rivers or streams is owned by individual private property owners and this is a case by case situation. You would need to examine the property deed to determine the owner of the land under the water. Accordingly, while you do have the right to float down any given navigable water, you would not have the right to take action to remove an obstruction on another persons property without their permission.
3. Does land ownership apply to debris obstructing the river? In other words, in the above-mentioned downed trees, does the landowner have the right to prevent people from cutting that downed tree?
-See the answer to number 2.
4. If a kayaker isn’t legally allowed to cut away those downed trees, but has the right to float through that section, who’s responsible for clearing the river of those trees?
-While New York law prevents an individual from intentionally obstructing, filling, damming or altering the course of navigable waters there is no New York law or regulation requiring property owners that border navigable waters or in which navigable water flows through their property to maintain the navigability of those waters. In your specific example I would suggest you contact the owner of the property in which the obstruction lies and ask permission to remove the tree that obstructs your path.
Our local forest preserve district
relies on clubs and private individuals to help them clear a navigable path. Our paddling club, the Smallie club and Scouts pretty much have free rein. We leave habitat, but clear most obstructions on our small stream. Fishing is good, paddling is good and everybody’s happy. Because the district is friendly to the locals desires, they get lots of volunteer help in developing excellent trails and greenspace in suburban IL. There are 3 neighboring counties that work with ours to link trails, water included, and we have a real nice system coming together.
just wondering
are the same people of the “just do it” e.g. cut it down without asking persuasion, the same people who would grab a road grader if the roadwork wasn’t going fast enough for them and lengthened their commuting time?
Cooperation between local volunteers and federal state agencies is great. Knowing what laws apply is intelligent.
The Wild West approach is neither.
just cut them
– Last Updated: Oct-17-06 10:53 AM EST –
Honestly if you let the log jams buildup they are just going to cause the landowner problems with flooding. Some enviromentalists just drive me nuts with their don't do anything because you might affect the stream. Honestly if you are one of those people don't even put your boat in the stream. For all you know, getting into the boat at the start, portaging around the trees may cause some erosion when you step on the bank. The stream may be impacted by you walking up and around the tree. Maybe you will step on some bugs that live by the stream. Maybe, maybe. If there is no one around to notice you cutting the logjam out, just cut it out. If you honestly think it improves streams having trees jamming it up, then chop down trees in all the rivers you paddle and jam them up.
In most states
Normally the adjoining landowners will own the river to the thalweg or middle of the stream or river if the body of water is not deemed “Navigable”. Therefore you would have to seek their permission.
On a Navigable body of water, (lake, river, stream) the ownership is with the state, and no one has the right to interfere with the customary use of the surface of the lake. So in this instance I would guess you could cut away to your hearts content.
However, I am aware that some government departments like Department of Natural Resources would consider the action you speak of (clearing a path) as something they have the authority to regulate.
Hope this helps.
P.S. I am a Professional Land Surveyor with some experience in Riparian rights.
Clean and Through Method
Here in MI it is actually ‘legal’ to use the clean and through method which means you can clear a path through as long as you are not changing the course of the waterway. I think that is the name of the method and it is actually encouraged as long as you leave some parts in the water for habitat.
Would hate to see someone drown in a strainer that could have been avoided. ‘We’ my friends and I that is, routinely keep a few miles of the best paddling in SE MI clear. When we meet people on the river, most are appreciative. Have not had any land owners complain yet, but not too much is ‘prime’, mostly public and in flood plain areas. We just try not to make it a major production - stealth clearing!
I’d just do it
Things in NY are so crazy, as you found out, that no one can really do much of anything. I’ve read a number of peoples’ explanation of the law concerning cutting into trees in water. It seems like the answer, ultimately comes down to it being prohibited by the DEC.
If it posed a real potential for danger, and not just an inconvenience, I’d make the necessary adjustments. But, I would also be pretty discreet about it too. If you pick the right timing and/or tools, it would seem to be fairly easy to avoid a confrontation.
Laws vary state to state. In RI…
Some state laws say nothing on the subject. Some states (like NY) are afraid to take any position on it, and defer to landowners whenever a question comes up.
In Rhode Island, clearing downed trees to clear passage for canoes and kayaks is an exempt activity that does not require any permit or pre-notification. So all you RI paddlers out there, start your saws!
I know…I’m the supervisor in charge of the RI permitting program for freshwater wetlands.
-Chuck
Beware of the Consequences
Several years ago my favorite kayaking spot was a stream which ran past the campground in eastern NC where I had a travel trailer.
About two miles upstream there was a bottleneck caused by trees jutting from both sides of the stream.
Being an industrious and thoughtful individual I decided to pull the trees to their respective banks so a couple of 'yaks could get through side-by-side.
What followed was unexpected? Bass boats of all type now wave as they fly by and enter the previously shut off area. My area of peace and solitude is no more. So beware of the consequences of your action(s).
“Any day on the water is a great day”
Cal
In Florida
with few exceptions, ANY navigable waterway is public property up to the annual mean high water level. So I paddle the few steep creeks in my area in the spring to check out the actual and potential deadfalls to either avoid or cut and clear before the hurricane and rainy season starts.
Although I’ve had a few problems with property owners after a conversation with any law enforcement they had called to talk with me the LEO would then inform them that since I wasn’t trespassing and was clearing a navigable waterway, I was within my rights and there weren’t laws being broke.
downed trees as “roadblock”
– Last Updated: Nov-11-06 4:40 AM EST –
another reason that prompted me to start this thread was the reverse of what happen in the above post: instead of someone clearing a quiet stretch and ended up having a hord come through, i get the distinct impression on one of the rivers i paddle that 1 or 2 landowners purposefully cut trees near their banks so as to block passage, as if they're putting a fense up around their property to keep people out.
no, i didn't see them actually cutting the tree, but the break in them seem a little too square, too straight, for it to be natural.