I think above
I think someone did mention that above, just didn’t call it the otter slide. But no word back from the original poster as to their issues, and doing something that may require a roll is probably a bit much for sloboat right now. (even if one is possible in the Kestral - don’t know where an average sized woman would find contact in that very large cockpit).
Will a Kestrel roll?
Actually, I’ve been thinking about it and it IS on my list of things to learn and master this year, so is some whitewater trainig and open water training(we’ll probably start with the Gulf side of Florida for the open water).
So we’ll see what the little bird can do…it may not be the optimal boat fot all activities, but we do have six kayaks. One of them should work…
deb
The boat will roll, but
– Last Updated: Jan-05-07 5:23 PM EST –
it requires the body to get the motion going. Learn in a boat that fits you tighter unless you like doing things the really hard way. Also one with lower decks, they come up a little easier at the end.
To 'splain, in a boat that fits too loosely you get no purchase to start the motion. Or you get halfway up and find yourself sliding all over the place trying to finish it. In sum, you end up spending so much effort just managing the boat that you can't concentrate on the mechanics of the roll itself.
I just rechecked the dimensions of the 140. Deck height in the 140 is 15 inches, the cockpit dimensions are 39 x 18.5", the width is 26 inches. Unless you are a really really tall and large woman, you'd be sliding all over the place in that trying to get good purchase.
rolling-otter slide-re-entry??
I launch from my dock all the time. I’m talking into an Atlantic Ocean fed tidal river where water/tide heights vary at least 4-6’.
A piece of line to tie off with is all you need.
I’m 6’1"-195lbs & I can stand up in my Romany with just one taunt line tied around the deck fitting/line located next to the cockpit on the dock side & the dock, as long as I am leaning (putting my weight) towards that side (i.e.-the dock along with the line tied to it).
No special skills are required.
If I want to stop at any of the many Restaurant/Marina/Bars that litter the area here for a break - as most all have docks or bulkheads w/ladders, I use this method-no problem.
Rolls, Otter slides, Re-entries. Great skills to have, I just don’t think they are necessary or required for a simple dock entry/exit.
- Just my opinion though.
It’s cheating with a Romany
If we ever encounter each other I’ll be interested to see that standing up bit work out in my Vela. There’s a reason I use the Explorer LV for a lot of the dicier stuff.
Anyway, good balance requires a certain degree of strength, and ability to come up evenly, which most avid sea kayakers find a way to maintain. But we end up talking to ourselves too much - for people coming off surgery or a long term illness that often just isn’t there. I’ve five major surgeries over the years, and there was a time period after each one where “simply” standing up in a boat to lean over against a dock would have been anything but simple. Skill needs a cooperative body.
Lerning the roll in another boat
First off, I am going to sucessfully ccomplete thsi dock exit/entry thing.
Okay, the Kestrel is not the boat to learn to roll in. We have:
two OLD White Brothers whitewater boats from the late '70s ( Tom used to live in upstate NY),
an OT Castine (my first solo kayak),
a Pamilco tandem (Tom started me kayaking in this one),
Tom’s Necky Looksha IV,
and my Kestrel.
All plastic except for the Kestrel and the Looksha.
I am 5’4", and average build. Perhaps rolling the Castine? Or the Looksha? when the time comes…ummm…should this be a new post or are “rabbit trails” acceptable?
deb
Celia
I understand what you are saying & no disrespect is/was intended.
But entering & exiting a small boat (any small boat) from a dock is a pretty simple task requiring no special skills or abilities beyond what I’ve stated (along with the will to do it), & IMHO, does not need to be unduly complicated via the use of advanced skills techniques.
The same method of tie-off/disembark can be used for any small craft - canoes, skiffs, kayaks, etc…
It’s fast, safe & easy - all it takes is a short piece of line (10’ at most) & the courage to do it once.
Please don’t knock it 'till you try it.
(PS-have also performed this many times in an Anas Acuta, an old Nordkapp-HS, an Avocet, Capella, …)
Which boat
Deep into cabin fever on this board, and at its most focused moment p.net threads tend to wander around. I looked up and am back.
You may want to check the archives too, and when you get closer to learning a roll start a post about what to expect and what worked for others.
I am 5’4" myself, by the way, 135 (approx) pounds.
I couldn’t find anything on the White Brothers WW boats, but they are probably the best bet among your fleet. The Looksha IV has way, way too much volume for you. It’d be a hard boat for you to roll even with a solid roll in hand. Surprisingly at 13 inches the Castine is slightly lower than the Kestrel by 2 inches and has a smaller cockpit (17 x 33in.), which is good. But it is still 26 inches wide which is bad, and even those better measures are still not great.
As I said I couldn’t find anything on the WW boats, but it is not unlikely they are older style river runners or slalom boats which often are easier to roll than some of the newer planing hull boats. The caution for them would be the padler weight for which they were designed. WW boats have long been designed to work for very specific weight ranges, which means that a WW boat can be a joy to use or a real bear if it was intended for someone heavier than you. If you are way under the intended weight range even the older WW boat could be difficult.
There is also the question of your comfort at being enclosed more tightly than you are used to, which will be inevitable. It took me a long time to be able to get by feeling entrapped and relax to focus on the roll when I first started, and frankly a tight little WW boat was more than I could handle. For me, I could only learn in a decently fitting sea kayak. There all kinds of things that you can be surprised by the first time you get upside down.
Boats that I know would be easy for you, because they are easy for me, include:
An old WW boat the Dagger Piedra (you can get these used and beat up for about $150 - worth picking one up)
An older slalom boat, the Pirouette S
NDK Romany, 16’ sea kayak
Impex Mystic
Necky drop-skeg Elaho. Only made for about three years, in plastic, and the hatches leak, but boy does it roll easy.
I have a few others that I think are real easy, but others have not agreed with me so best to leave them off the list.
Hmmm…
Kestrel: No
Castine: No
Pamlico tandem: No
Looksha IV: Probably not.
I’m 5’9", and the standard Looksha IV felt pretty big and loose fitting for me (high decks, large cockpit opening, etc.), so I’m guessing that at 5’4", it would feel even bigger to you; and therefore, perhaps not the best boat for you to learn your first rolls with.
White Bros. old school WW boats: Yes (I think).
I’m not familiar with these particular boats, but they just might be the most reasonable possibility of the bunch for you to start rolling with; as long as you can achieve a good cockpit fit.
Melissa
this is where a kayak kick stand
really comes in handy
Nah - Hennessey Hammock
First you set it up on the dock, then put the boat into it with paddler, then lower the whole arrangement. Rent a nice truck with a winch on the way to the launch point… - then do it all in reverse.
No slight intended, just couldn’t resist.
Old WW White Bros Kayaks
I’ll take some measurements in the AM. Manufacturer was out of Canada. Pretty sure they have been out of business or bought out by now.
He bought them in late 70s and used them quite frequently until the late 80s. We have been slowly
“reconditioning” them. Plastic is still in good shape because they have been stored out of the sun.
Tell ya what. I’ll let this go for now and pick it back up when “its time”. Who knows maybe I’ll win the CD Storm by then.
Really appreciate the time taken to educate me (and hopefully others). I will let you know what happens Sunday at the dock. Weather is supposed to be perfect, y’all are welcome to join us…
deb
Opps! got it wrong again…
I thought you were talking about Hennessey AND a hammock…
deb
sorry,
– Last Updated: Jan-05-07 10:50 PM EST –
I thought this thread was about "dock entry/exit"
I was offering a simple solution to the question posed regarding departing from a kayak at a dock.
Again, if you lean with your weight towards the edge of the kayak supported by the line attached to the dock (or anywhere), there is no need to get 'wet'.
There is no need to 'balance' when one side of the boat is secured. And 'standing' in the boat is rarely necessary to exit.
Hope this helps clear things up...
Height?
OK - maybe I’m not getting what you mean. This is the setup that I believe we are talking about. The boat has returned to the dock, I am sitting in the boat, and the top of the dock is about three feet higher than the water. So at 5’4" the top of my head is still lower than the edge of the dock by about 5 inches (I just measured it). I have to get myself from a seated position in the boat to having a useful majority of my body parts, like most of my torso, over the edge and on the horizontal surface of the dock in order to get out of the boat.
There is no way I can get enough of my torso up and onto the dock to pull my posterior etc up and over that does not involve at least passing thru a moment when I am pretty much standing in the boat. I may be standing with a lot of my weight on the dock, but I still have to go thru that erect moment.
How tall are you?
Even better
O/k
I understand your position & perhaps I should have clarified.
But seriously, who would be trying to scale up a dock or bulkhead with no apparent egress (or point of attachment) of any type?
I mean, if there is no ladder/cleat/tie-off (for say swimmers or small boat access) & the water to dock height exceeds say 3ft, why bother, find another egress point.
I mean, in most cases it can be done in a pinch by the truly determined. But otherwise, why bother?
Surely there must be another way.
Either you are reading way too much into this post, or I misunderstood the question.
So to avoid confusion let me re-state; anything above 3ft without any an egress aid - call for air support, or take your chances.
Seems that no matter what advice you provide here, someone will come up with some scenario to rebuke what you say.
dock entry/exit
First, thanks to all for the tips and advice. I paddle a “Dirigo”, my wife paddles a “Rush” both soon to include a bow line. Next, practice will begin over warm water to assess my 70yr old balancing ability to master a getting onto and off a 24" high floating dock.
Sometimes you gotta
The really tall dock did have something to tie off to, but with the dock height and where it was I couldn’t actually reach it with a painter until I had gotten myself hoisted up there. So I stood/leaned/dropped over the dock with my painter in hand. I had been asked to manage the dock as-is, so couldn’t use the nearby beach.
We don’t seek out really lousy launch points, but once in a long while it’s what you have. Usually when the alternative is to keep paddling for another indeterminant while, and like driving there are times that getting off the water soon is necessary to recoup, figure out how you got to this ridiculous spot etc.
I’ve also had to get into my boat from pretty tough spots when the area that we pulled or tied our boats to has radically changed while we ate. An occassional problem in Maine, where the tide is 9 to 11 ft so once in a long while you just guess wrong about how friendly it’ll be an hour later.
I happen to agree with the idea that you need to be able to handle tough docking and launch points, even if it is not something you’d normally choose to do.
the
White Brothers kayaks are from the old days…they are 4 meter boats kind of high deck, not an Ocean cockpit but before keyholes…very little outfitting, no thigh braces, just the hull. some had no seats or seats that don’t really qualify as a stationary object. rolled ok if you could tighten them up enough.
they are very barebones kayaks like the 70’s model 4 m plastic kleppers were…or the 4 m old town kayaks except I think those were Royalex , with the foam core. At least the one I had I believe , was.
White Brothers , I believe , were made in Canada
havent seen any for years.
AHHH the old days on the rivers were way differant than these days.
Best Wishes
Roy