thanks for the ideas!
The Willow sounds very interesting for a shorter boat with reasonably narrow beam that won’t be twitchy - thanks for the suggestion. I will also see if we can find a Necky Eliza to try, which Salty also recommended as a possibility. The Tiderace Excite S also sounds very interesting.
My wife currently paddles an Aquanaut LV RM, which she does well in and likes, but I was thinking a shorter boat might be more efficient and fun for her. After these comments, the Rumour is obviously not the right boat for her -she has good balance and reasonable bracing skills but no roll yet.
Great information -thanks.
If she likes the Aquanaut LV…
– Last Updated: May-04-09 10:50 AM EST –
The composite version of that boat is a whole different animal. It's relatively new over here so finding a used/demo one may be tough, but if you have a chance to demo it she should try. It is much closer to her needs in its sizing than the RM. The RM is a lot of boat for her to be pushing, the LV cuts closer to a good volume.
Obviously the only way this'd make sense would be if you sold the RM, but I thought it worth a mention.
I don't know how she'll react to the Eliza - maybe she'll find it a little boring compared to the Aquanaut, or maybe it'll feel more lively due to being better matched in volume. Definately worth a try though.
that
was a quick decision to not look at a kayak.
I paddled the CD Rumor (differant than the older Dutch made Rumor) right after it came out.
at 200 pounds I sank it well into the water. The combing is narrow, but the seat is wider than the combing so I was fine while in the boat, but for getting in and out it was never designed for a person my size.
I didn’t notice it being tippy at all…I did notice it being nicely quick off the line and rolled very nice…I think the deck is too high for a kayak that targets smaller people and I didn’t like how the seat was put in.
other than that , I think that most people just need to try the kayak themselves and not do any decisions about any kayak solely based on the internet.
Best Wishes
Roy
Agree
You should give the Rumour a try. Last year I asked Nigel what he would recommend to me from his designs. His response was I’d be perfect for the Rumour and possibly I should try the Silhouette. He then had me paddle Kristen’s Rumour which was at the beach and I had a blast in it for about 10 minutes. I’m 5’8" and was 165-170lbs. at the time.
Also, there is not much difference between the RM Aquanaut and the Aquanaut LV (assuming you don’t have the Aquanaut RM HV version). The newly branded Aquanaut RM LV has nearly the same dimensions as the Aquanaut LV in composite, except that the RM version is about 1/2 to 1" deeper. The additional depth may be lost though because the roto plastic is thicker than the composite material. As a result the RM may have a more snug fit. You just need to try them side by side.
Appreciate everyone’s comments
Aquanaut LV RM v composite
– Last Updated: May-05-09 8:18 AM EST –
Perhaps I am not reading things correctly - here's what I found that seemed to make a bright line between these two boats on Valley's site:
Aquanaut LV in RM -
LENGTH 17'1" (521cm) WIDTH 22" (56cm) DEPTH 13.5" (34cm) WEIGHT* 55lbs (25kg), weight bearing curve tops at 200 lbs
Aquanaut LV in composite -
LENGTH 17'1" (521cm) WIDTH 21.5" (55cm) DEPTH 12.5" (32cm) WEIGHT* 49lbs (22.5kg), weight bearing curve tops at 150 lbs
The composite is only half an inch narrower, but that inch less depth matters for those under 6' and the curve is quite different between the two. Cockpits may be diff too, but can't tell from the web site.
Granted there has been more than one manufacturer whose assessment I have disagreed with when I actually got into the boat.
AS to stability, wetzool is correct that in the end you have to sit in the boat to really be sure. I guess it comes down to how far away the nearest Rumour is from you against other alternatives.
Valley cockpit fit…
The cockpits of same model name Valley boats tend to be quite different in RM than in composite.
The boat now designated as the Aquanaut LV RM (Enthusiast)was originally marketed simply as the Aquanaut LV. Its greater volume than the composite 'naut LV might be noticeable.
In any case the Aquanaut hull design is a very good one and demoing both composite and RM 'naut LVs is certainly worth the effort.
Almost …
“The boat now designated as the Aquanaut LV RM (Enthusiast)was originally marketed simply as the Aquanaut LV.”
Actually, I think you just made a typo. It was formerly known as the Aquanaut RM. 
Also, depending on where you get the specs from, it is listed as a depth of 13" or 13.5". Don’t you just love how manufactureres can’t quite get there websites correct with something that should be as simple as specifications on boat designs that don’t change all that often?
Point is that you need to sit in and paddle any boat you are considering. I don’t know if true or not, but the Aquanaut LV and the Aquanaut LV RM could be like the sibling Avocet and the Avocet RM where the Avocet RM is a more snug fit out of the box.
Best,
~wetzool
Demystifying Stability
– Last Updated: May-05-09 8:58 AM EST –
Nigel states on the CD site that the "initial stability has been increased" for the Rumor.
What does this mean? Basically, the amount of force in lbs has probably gone from 1-4 lbs, i.e., almost NO force resisting heeling from upright to 15 degrees of lean, to say 5-8 lbs. This gives the paddler some reserve in keeping the boat upright, and probably more importantly, a false sense of stability, as what matter more turns out to be how linear is the stability or heeling force curve as it reaches maximum heeling angle, in most boats 35 degrees, the point at which the heeling force becomes dramatically smaller until capsize.
So what is more important to a beginner is the sense of stability, that is the initial or primary stability, vs the linear stability and amount of heeling force that resists capsize until one reaches 35 degrees or so of lean.
If you advise your partner to get a boat that has ONLY higher initial stability and NOT a given amount of linear and secondary stability you are inadvertently luring her into a boat that will feel not feel twitchy when completely upright, but will in action be difficult for her to not feel overwhelmed as the boat goes beyond 20 degrees of lean, if she does not have unconscious and automatic bracing skills.
As I read Nigel's words, he has NOT increased the secondary of the Rumor. So I would be cautious even in a demo of making sure to heel the boat over and see for oneself how it responds!
OTOH
Assuming any of this means anything at all. The force needed to heel the boat is also the force needed to right the boat when you are on the other side of the curve. Which is why some well regarded rough water boats have very shallow stability curves. Of course some don’t. The weight in the boat and its location makes a huge difference in those curves so there are many variables.
exactly
totally so eel. i have wondered if the way we think of this stuff is factual or mostly myth. check out my post on this. i would like your further thoughts on this. Some folks feel this stuff is a big deal, some feel it is totally unimportant and a host of really dogmatic ideas are floated sometimes on the posts. It has got me all confused.
Yup, typo
Thanks wetzool. I meant Aquanaut RM. Rushing before heading off to work.
Hmm, tideplay
I think a few things re your post:
- Often long held industry beliefs based on marketing and emotion have mislead consumers.
- Folk are sometimes resistant to new information as they are so invested in the old information. It’s tough to let stuff go.
- I don not believe that there’s an inherent advantage to a tippy hull in big seas, unless speed for racing is focus. If we look at the most popular rough water touring kayaks and play kayaks we in fact see boxier cross, sections, and ample chine volume, which not only adds stability, but playfullness.
Of course there’s always a fine line and a compromise. It’s easy to get overly obsessed with one variable, but there’s a lot going on. I say immerse yourself in it as long as it’s fun mentally and it enhances your enjoyment.
Your body and mind are super computers working together and you’ll know what’s working for you.
Numbers are fun, to a point, but it’s how a boat feels in the water that matters.
Aquanaut LV
At 5’9", 160 the composite Aquanaut LV I demoed last year was a near-perfect fit for me. I like a snug fit, and it felt much better than the standard Aquanaut. Small dimensional changes can make a big difference.
The reason to choose a Rumour…
…is that for smaller paddlers it provides much better performance than most boats. Its length, beam and deck heights are very well suited to them. For a smaller paddler, it’s also a pretty fast boat due to its low drag and fairly long waterline for its length. Although it can be described as “nervous”, “twitchy” or “unforgiving”, the performance may justify the “cost”.
That’s interesting
– Last Updated: May-06-09 8:52 AM EST –
The design changes must be pretty subtle, as they aren't apparent when looking at the boat. I guess we would need to compare the old and new versions side-by-side to see the changes. FWIW, my comments above are based on the pre-CD design and may not be applicable to the CD version. Since it sounds like I could actually fit in the CD boat, I'll have to try one sometime.
it’s just a rumor
existentially no…
My experience
I needed to rent a third boat two summers ago so I could bring both my daughters on Georgian Bay trip.
It was peak season and all the outfitters rentals were out except for a NF Rumour (CD version)
They (White Squall) asked if we were experienced kayakers as this yak was known to be a tippy one and we assured them we were. LOL
My daughter paddled it most of the time and because of the severe tenderness of the hull she had to have one of us hold the boat steady each time so she could get in and out.
Once under way she was fine even in swells and wind chop. I took it out(empty) a couple of times during the trip and my observations were:
At 5’7" and 145 lbs the seat,cockpit and knee braces fit me well. The only complain was that the rear coaming was a little too high for extreme laybacks but in spite of that standard rolls were very easy to do.
Acceleration was fast and after 3 or 4 power strokes it seemed to fly across the water like a little rocket compared to my own boat which is only a foot longer but 22" beam. I don’t know about top end
as I was alone and on flat water so there was nothing to compare it to but it sure did seem fast.
The deck rigging was lacking as there was no way to stow a GP storm paddle on the front deck and I had to add some bungie to the rear in order to stow a breakdown Euro.
It was equipped with Kayaksport hatches but they were
moulded differently than the Kayaksport hatches on my boat which I really like. The ones on the Rumour were kind of slayed on the bottom and it was hard to tell if they were on properly or not after some fiddling.
I suspect they would be a PITA in cold weather.
In spite of all that they didn’t leak.
That’s my spin on this different but interesting design.
Bert
RM Aquanaut LV volume
The poly Aquanaut LV came in at 13.4 cubic feet of volume according to Sea Kakyaker. The standard composite Aquanaut is 12.94 cu.ft. of volume.
By way of comparison the Nordkapp LV is 11.52 cu.ft. and the NDK Explorer is 13.36 cu.ft.