Air was not just in the legs. But I could not get into my normal position and could not sort out what the problem was. Note that I cannot, never have been able to, open my eyes under water.
Air is an interesting thing when rolling a skin kayak and wearing a Tuilik. As the air moves from the kayak {skin pushes in with water pressure} It enters the Tuilik. This has very little to do with air in a drysuit…just throwing it out there for some thought on kayak differences in the mix. {also when underwater , the air trapped in the Tuilik transfers to the kayak.}
Ending up head down due to the air in a drysuit going to the legs is a real issue and is known as inversion drowning. However it generally can’t happen while wearing a PFD. There is a technique to get out of this situation that scuba divers that wear drysuits learn.
There was a case a number of years ago on the Potomac. Marine police were practicing a series of rescue scenarios in the winter. One of the men was the designated “victim”. While wearing a drysuit and no PFD and with no one watching he dove head first into the water. The air rushed into his legs and he couldn’t right himself. It was later found that he tried to cut himself out of the suit, but he drowned before he could completely free himself. With the air released from the suit he sank. His body was retrieved several days later. This was another case of a series of errors. No PFD. It was assumed that the drysuit would provide enough floatation. No one was watching as the person went into the water. Not being trained on the possibility of inversion drowning.
A good lesson on wearing a PFD with a drysuit. Wading into the water to release some of the trapped air is also a good way to judge if you have enough thermal protection on under the suit.
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Which is what?
Basically a tuck and roll. You would also use your arms to help you roll upright. It’s a problem with scuba diving as it can result in a rapid uncontrolled ascent, although a diver generally won’t have problems breathing. Divers also sometimes resort to ankle weights to minimize this.
Wearing a PFD for a kayaker generally prevents inversion. You generally tend to end up horizontal, at worst.
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For what seemed a simple question, I’m learning a lot from the replies. The wealth of knowledge never ceases to amaze me.
Once on Principe Channel my partner and I got out of our boats to check out a camp site. Dave unzipped his suit and took off his PFD. When we came back down to the beach our boats were gone. Dave raced into the water like a Labrador Retriever chasing a boat bumper thrown from a dock zipping his suit up as he went shouting that he was going to swim after the boats which were no where in sight.
I was sure that he would streak through the water like Michael Phelps, recover our boats and save our trip. What I witnessed next, though, was predictable and utterly disheartening. His transformation from magnificent superhero to something much further down the food chain was shockingly complete before the initial splash was over. Immediately he was flailing away on top of the water with his suit totally Michelin-Manned out with excess trapped air. He was going nowhere fast. I watched as he tried and discarded various strokes. The crawl became the balloon-splash. Side stroking resulted in uncontrolled roll-overs to one side and then the other. The backstroke became four red-clad limbs slapping the water around a giant red kickball. After watching him for what seemed like five minutes he had made only about 20-30 feet of total progress. If he ever made it as far as the outside of the cove the current and wind would have caught him and swept him away.
I spotted the boats under some tree limbs that were overhanging the water and he heard my shouts over the his sounds of splashing water. He turned and “swam” back. It took him a while to get back to where he could touch the bottom and wade out.
I’m not saying it can’t happen, but I think this danger is somewhat exaggerated. I was a Swiftwater Rescue Instructor, and worked for quite a few years as a river safety patrol ranger on some very cold western rivers where I donned a dry suit every day. Almost invariably during our swiftwater classes this fear would come up, leading to the inevitable response of “Let’s try it.” The only time any one buoyed, with or without a PFD, was when they had purposely tried to get as much air into their suit as possible. As 3meterswell pointed out, it can indeed make swimming quite difficult though. Some students figured out the curl up in a ball technique that rstevens posted, but generally just bending your legs enough pushes some air up into the thighs, allowing you to float more or less horizontally. Absolutely it’s awkward and can be scary, but I never lost anybody 
. I actually would encourage dry suit wearers to get in the water (with a partner of course) and mess around with different burp/no burp/PFD/ no PFD scenarios.
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See rstevens15’s post above. The danger was explained to me by state fire instructors during my swift water training, and the ballooning was obvious to the students in my class who jumped into shallow water without burping that there could be a potential problem. But no one went full over to experience the full inverted float.
Couple thoughts:
The spray skirt can impede air moving from torso to legs. Often attempting a routine roll it feels like you can’t roll DOWN. Helps to just wait a few seconds for the air in the torso to migrate up past the skirt to the now higher legs. Otherwise roll up on the same side you rolled down on, instead of a complete revolution. One more reason why I like to vent fully.
During a cold lunch break you can blow air in through the neck seal to add insulation. Then burp before starting away again. Yes, while paddling the body creates vapor inside the suite. And the squat & burp can also alert you if you forgot to zip up after peeing, a surprisingly common error. The absence of bulging should make you question why.
I’m a big guy and the seals never stretch enough. Trim that latex neck and get comfy, we have enough reasons to hate wearing the damn thing IMHO. But save a few rings to trim fresh latex a couple years from now when the edges start cracking. It takes surprisingly little tension to maintain the seal.
I read it, but I’d like to see a more detailed report on the drowning, as there are definitely some points that don’t really add up.
Was he wearing a lead suit? Why would you sink once the air was released? If air trapped in your suit was keeping you inverted, a simple cut would release the air. The notion that he would need to cut himself out of the suit makes no sense. Water is neutrally buoyant in water. One simple cut would solve the problem of the inversion. Something doesn’t add up there.
If we’re assuming, I’m going to assume then that he couldn’t swim or something else happened, which might be the root of the problem, not the drysuit. A punctured drysuit will not drag you to the bottom.
edit: After reading what I could find on this drowning, apparently he was a good swimmer. Unfortunately the 21 pages that I could find made no mention of a knife or inversion, etc.http://www.psdiver.com/images/10-21-2008_Woodbridge_VA_-Frank_Stecco-_LEO_Vol_PSD_Training_Lost.pdf
Deleted my dumb post. D’oh!
I can imagine flayling around in a cut/ripped dry suit, not being able to effectively swim, and all of his air having been expelled from his lungs with no buoyancy left. My question is, how did he have a knife? Normally a knife is conveniently clipped onto the PFD for easy access.
No no no. You’re saying that water sinks in water? The water that enters the suit is no heavier than the water outside the suit, therefore there is no reason for it to pull down on the person. Awkward to swim in, but unless the suit itself is heavy, water in the suit will not sink it. Water is neutrally buoyant in water. If I jump in the water with big pockets on my swim suit, will they fill with water and pull me down? No.
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No worse than falling in with clothes on.
No, no, no. You completely missed what was said. Of course water weighs like water. Trying to kick your way out of a ripped suit that is surrounding your legs like a and arms like a parachute doesn’t directly promote to sinking unless panic leads to ineffective swimming motions against the resistance of dragging the full suit with every motion. When you jump in and your big pockets fill with water, they will hinder effective swimming. Try swimming with a big sloppy sweatshirt and sweat pants on. When soaked they weigh nothing more than water of course, riight? But if deeply submerged, swimming effectively to and on the surface is nearly impossible. Plus, if he had exhaled all the air in his lungs in the process, he has no bouyancy. Some people are not naturally bouyant and will sink like a rock with no air in their lungs. it is not difficult to imagine how such a drowning might occur.
Exactly.
I thought this whole conversation started with the danger of not burping your suit? Where did this “deeply submerged” come in? With a suit full of air you’ll be bobbing like a cork. When you release the air, you’re not going to be dragged to the depths by your suit. My point is that it has been said or implied multiple times in this thread that the drysuit will drag you down, which is simply not true.
This topic has been discussed here before:If Dry Suit Fills w/ Water Will U Drown?
Here’s another example from a diver:Consequences of a flooded dry suit. | ScubaBoard
[quote=“ptickner, post:37, topic:112265”]
My point is that it has been said or implied multiple times in this thread that the drysuit will drag you down, which is simply not true.
[/quote]You are mistaken about what you read. I never said or implied anythiing about a dry suit dragging one down as if it was a heavy weight. only that it would be difficult to effectively swim with ripped fabric surrounding your limbs, and without any air in lungs, some (most) people naturally sink.
I don’t believe I specifically attributed this to you. Another poster said that a dry suit filled with water “might as well be lead”.
Original article: http://www.psdiver.com/images/10-21-2008_Woodbridge_VA_-Frank_Stecco-_LEO_Vol_PSD_Training_Lost.pdf .
Other articles can likely be found. I remembered this because it was close to home and we’ve discussed it in safety classes. I only have he news stories to refer to. Exactly what happened and the order that it happened in you can only rely on the after incident reports, as no one witnessed him go into the water (one of the several errors that were cited). Doubt if you will and discuss why it couldn’t have happened, the fact remains that it did.