No to Jeans
Jeans are cotton, and you don’t want cotton next to your body when you’re wearing a dry suit as denim doesn’t wick off moisture.
Since you ski, your long underwear should work fine. I wear a one piece made by Kokatat over my long underwear BUT Cabela’s also makes a one piece fleece which is considerably cheaper. A few coaches I know wear one.
I know nothing about water skiing gear, which looks like it might be not terribly flexible, but I think for $400, you might be able to find a used dry suit.
Lk Ontario and Erie are not flatwater
– Last Updated: Nov-17-11 12:44 PM EST –
The Great Lakes are inland seas, and your profile lists them. I've stood on the shore of Lake Erie, at a family wedding, and watched the water go from calm and flat to 5 ft seas in the space of far less time than it'd take you to make it back to shore from a half mile out.
Your concept of controlling how much you are going to get wet is not going to work if you plan to do tours on these big lakes. For that you need to stay in the canal or far closer to shore than you are likely to want to.
Most people find that getting dunked is a normal part of learning better skills, including learning to help out in rescues. I am often half in the water trying to get someone back into their boat. I am not saying that it can't be done without a dry suit if you stay in warmer stuff. But assuming that you can only get wet by plan is a good way to limit your options or progression in paddling.
This is an approach to paddling that works for many, who are fine with doing some self-limiting because their paddling is about other things than larger bodies of water. It's not clear that it is a plan for you.
Close to shore for me
I don’t plan on anything far from shore in the lakes. Plus I stay out of lake Erie being shallow it can wipp up into some really choppy waves quickly as you mention. When out on lake Ontario i stay close to shore I may go out farther but much later in the year were cold water temps wont be a big concern. Any learning such as practice rolls and learning to lean kayak for better carving will all be done in Erie canal. Not way out on the lake. So with that in mind plus I wont be out until May were wearing thermal underwear or fleece would cook me good. Iam thinking NRS hydrosilk for under drysuit. Its supposed to wick moisture away.
But as far as a drysuit iam leaning toward either a water-skier type drysuit from Barefoot or Oneiil there about $400. Or go with a wetsuit bottom and a drytop from NRS. Say about $80 for bottom wetsuit and about $240 for NRS drytop. But iam still open to looking for a used full drysuit but haven’t found any in my size yet. But no way can i do thermal underwear or fleece under drysuit in May. If water temp wasn’t cold in May i would wear just a t-shirt and shorts BUT i know it is cold water so that’s out.
General comment
You have a number of assumptions that may change as you get some seat time this coming season. They are the kinds of things that tend to change a lot, actually.
Overall you are trying to keep your outlay on the low side - that’s probably the single best thing you could do right now.
Rough Rule of thumb for wetsuits
– Last Updated: Nov-17-11 2:06 PM EST –
Water temp down to about 55 F -58 . 3/2 Full suit ~$120
Water temp down to about 45-47 F 4/3 Full suit ~$160
Water temp 32 - 45 5 mm + ~$250
Prices are for high quality last year's models on sale.
A lot depends on your body fat and experience and practice in cold water. For a quick dip in 40 F water a 4/3 would work, but you would be uncomfortable.
Full suits will keep you much warmer than farmer johns.
If you don't have the bucks to spend on a drysuit or wetsuit, best to buy a farmer john and wait until the water is above 55F.
Hydroskin is for water above at least ~ 62F and many folks find it inadequate.
Yeah, I have a 2-piece suit, and they
won’t leave me alone at the beach.
Seriously, I have a Stohlquist drytop and a Palm bottom with booties, that mates with overlapping sleeves. I haven’t tested it for swimming, but I really need to.
If it’s not super cold, I wear the drytop mated to some good quality Patagonia neoprene shorts. Water does get up the short legs somewhat, and a little down the waist, but it doesn’t get up into the drytop.
What I found
I found this drysuit for $481
Kokatat Tropos 3 Swift-Entry Drysuit
Its only a little more than the water-skier barefoot drysuit.
Now the tropos part is what the material is called correct?
its cheaper than gortex suits and the ad says it does breath.
Anyone have one of these tropos 3 swift-Entry suits? Its stretching my budget to the max but if thats what it takes then i guess i have too.
I will contact Kokatat on sizing as the medium says 5’6" to 6’ up to 175 and chest up to 42 and waste up to 34. Were iam 5’8" 170 lbs waste is 34 and my chest is 42. so iam right at the upper limit on sizing for medium. Were large starts at 5’10". Iam wondering if i want to put a layer underneith i would need the large size?
Astounding volume of water
I’m used to having a little water get into my wetsuits, because if I buy them according to the manufacturer’s recommended size for my height and weight, they are tight enough to restrict freedom of movement. Using a more flexible neoprene helps, but it seems that I have a scrawny neck.
The drypant fiasco was amazing because it wasn’t just “some water.” It was enough to impede completion of things I could do with “some water” in other clothing. A fantastic demonstration of how buoyant water balloons are but not something I want to repeat. At least I found out in late summer or early fall, not in early spring!
The first few times I tested the pant/top combo not as much water got in. That was only because I didn’t swim around in it. When you test, do all the motions that you might actually need to do in a real emergency. Don’t just float there with the PFD holding you up–swim like it’s do or die. If your multiple-rolls of sealing still hold, then no need to buy a one-piece suit. I’d still recommend that someone who doesn’t already have the two-piece combo skip it and go straight to either a full wetsuit or a one-piece drysuit.
I agree. The reason I got the Palm
drybib was that I got a tremendous deal on it. Because it is a bib, suspenders and all, I’m hoping that whatever water gets under the overlapping seals will not readily get over the top of the bib and into the legs.
I guess we have to be aware that wetsuits and drysuits can be like Dumbo’s Magic Feather… things that make us feel empowered to “fly” in cold water and cold weather, although actually they are both questionable solutions to the challenge of a long, cold swim.
Sizing and Tropos
– Last Updated: Nov-18-11 7:54 AM EST –
That's a good deal, I'd suggest you grab it. Just make sure that no one has trimmed the neck gasket - people sometimes go big without acclimating to the suits first and then it is too big. At your size the gasket size that Kokatat puts into that suit should be fine.
Re sizing - Kokatat sizing charts allow for one layer underneath, and I have found their measurements to be true. I hit a comfortable spot in their measurements for a Unisex small in all except for the butt, and there I am at the max. However, as long as I don't gain weight (or at least not there), I am still fine with a typical midweight layer underneath like the union suit or 200 wt fleece bottoms, let alone thinner stuff.
Tropos 3 is their current breathable but less warrantied than GoreTex fabric, but it is still a 3 layer fabric and has some decent level of warranty on it. It is just fine.
The other option in this price range is a pretty good deal on one of the NRS suits, if I am not out of date. But I may be that.
Second thoughts
I am in the same situation as the op. New to Kayaking, gaining skills, living in cold Northeast. Having just spent an evening reading “Sea Kayaker - Deep Trouble” which consists of true stories and their lessons from Sea Kayaker Magazine I am beginning to wonder if human beings belong in the ocean in a kayak at the water temperatures that predominate in the Northeast. I do think that there are many things we can do to reduce risk but it is not possible to eliminate the risks associated with paddling in cold water. Read this book if you have any doubt that no matter how skilled you are and no matter how good your clothing you are taking a very serious risk when you paddle in cold water especially away from shore. 200 yards from shore might as well be 10 miles in some situations. Personally I do not think most people, even many fairly experienced paddlers, truly appreciate the extent of the risk they take in cold water - nor do they appreciate the fact that even 60 degree water is dangerous, very dangerous.
I have developed a sense of relative safety in spring run white water rivers within my skill level. But the risks in the ocean and in big lakes seem far more significant. I am going to proceed into this aspect of the sport very cautiously and very slowly. I have a wife and a 3 kids and I want to be around a while longer. No Kayaking experience is worth the ultimate price. This is not an endeavor that should be undertaken without the best skills, the right experience and the best equipment. Not a place to be saving money on equipment that isn’t going to give you every single edge you can get against the possibility that you will pay the ultimate price. Do not underestimate the danger, do not overestimate your knowledge and skill.
nearness to shore
That and the tendency of the water to carry you somewhere,even if just a bit downstream, is a big diff between ww and open water. It is why so many here advocate not to paddle solo in the winter. Help getting back in a boat from a properly garbed fellow paddler makes it work. The idea of having some time to do an assisted rescue is a different mind set from the ww situation.
Yes - but
my point is even when you know and follow all the rules and even when you are very experienced with weather and oceans and currents and such, even when who paddle with others, etc., etc., - the risk remains and it is substantial and real. We all take risks but you don’t want to be exposing yourself to risks without a complete understanding of the dangers. Also, we are human. No matter how experienced, no matter how intelligent, no matter how skilled, we all make mistakes.
Drysuit vs. Combo
I have both and the drytop & pant combo will leak. It happens fairly quickly even with a snug fit. For those water temperatures, it’s not a risk that I’d take.
IMHO, buy the drysuit. You’ll love it.
On the other hand …
You’ll find lots of people out surfing all winter in very cold water totally immersed in wetsuits. You very very very seldom hear of someone surfing dying of hypothermia.
Learn to dress for the water temps and know your skill limits and you can have fun in cold water.
Yes, risk exists
To make a good risk assessment, you need to know really really well what you can and can’t rely on in a pinch. If there is a way to learn this other than spending a lot of time on the water, practicing and making some embarrassing mistakes, I don’t know what it would be.
So for example I know that without deck rigging I am not going to be reliable emptying a capsized boat in 36 degree water, even with gloves that are otherwise fine for paddling in that stuff. In our winter pod, the majority of us have practiced helping out so that a two person rescue can be three or four to help move things along. My husband and I think seriously about what boat goes out for a given paddle - come cold weather my Explorer goes out more than in warm stuff. That’s because it is a significantly better rescue platform for our larger sized paddling companions than my spritely little Vela, and in light paddling seasons like this fall it has more head room for mistakes from me.
There are two lessons from Deep Trouble. One is what you found, which is that you can get into real trouble out there. But the other is that there are ways to mitigate some of these risks. It’s been a while, but my recall is that there are a few that jump out. Granted the guys whose boat got bit by a Great White shark were just unlucky - or lucky since they made it to shore.
But there are other factors there too, unfortunate though they be. I am thinking of things like paddling solo in challenging stuff, making a go decision without anticipating or confirming water conditions, and having mixed groups of paddlers who only have one person who has the practiced skills to handle rescues in bad conditions. Most days, on most paddles, these things do not end up having horrid consequences. But some days they can.
I found another drysuit
I found this one a Wiley for $279. Its basically a water-skier drysuit but I would think it would work well.
http://www.wileyski.com/shopproductdetail.asp?prodID=4078&catID=84
sufring in the winter
My son surfs in Maine in the winter. He wears 7MM full suit with a hood and he is very comfy. They are surfing on a beach with small waves. Not the same kettle of fish.
Yer will stew in yer own juices, Pilgrim
Dat be a coated drysoot!
FE
Agree with Elmo
Basic coated material, questionable longevity but worse no breathability and you will find it pretty unwearable.
Why the rush?