Eddy turns with loaded tripping canoe?

concur about keeping the stern lighter
than the bow to back ferry. So if you encounter waves that will be big enough to swamp you out its probably not the way to go because you’ll want to set up the bow light as others have stated but back paddling might still be on your menu even in this situation to give the bow time to ride up.



The key from my perspective is to communicate quickly and precisely what you need to execute a successful back ferry. . Understanding that the bow will have a far easier time to make the adjustment to the stern angle is where some folks falter. “Give me one draw stroke now, two pry strokes, three back paddles etc” seems to work well for me as I give directions from the stern up to the bow.

Similarly getting the boat to pivot around objects takes similar communication. “After you pass the boulder give two draw stokes behind it”. The bow paddler can’t see the stern as it passes the boulder.



If you’re fortunate enough to have an experienced bow paddler then all of this might not be as necessary.



A good challenge is to paddle solo from the bow and paddle a stream with a lot of twisting current. You’ll learn pretty quick how the bow effects the stern angle. Expect to get swung around and end up pointing upstream until you get the hang of it.

Keep the downstream end heavy
Another great way to see the effect of trim on a canoe is by poling. You quickly realize that it’s a lot easier to stay in control if you keep the downstream end heavy – moving forward to weight the bow (lighten the stern) snubbing downstream, and moving back to weight the stern (lighten the bow) to push upstream. Changing trim on the move is easy to do while poling, but a little tougher when you are kneeling with a boatload of gear.

Its all about
whether you are moving slower or faster than the current - and in a typical river tripping environment that changes moment to moment. This is why I prefer a boat with some rocker and a neutral trim. If you have rocker and a neutral trim you can deal with any situation that arises just fine.

hull shape
where does the question go with hull design for a 17’+



tripping hull for class 2-3+ water ?



bow and stern…deeper bow flatter/wider stern ?



if we copied hull shapes from Old Town et al n compared…wat would we see ?



regional differences as with sea kayaks or more idiosyncratic design approaches ?



Bell, Jensen …?

Yes there were regional differences.
The E.M. White and Old Town wood canvas tripping canoes reflected the need for travel in shallow rocky rivers found in northern new england. They had fairly flat bottoms. The Chestnut Prospector and Peterboroughs reflected deeper water in eastern canada and had more rounded bottoms and more rocker.

Lots of great input
but I’m still a little confused about the best strategy to get down the river!



I think only one person advised against exposing the broadside to the current in a wilderness setting and prefers to avoid it, while only a couple of people recommended eddy turns/peel outs outright.



May I conclude then, as some have stated, that the technique is essentially the same as in an empty WW boat, driving from eddy to eddy, but with the obvious differences of boat weight and size?




Forums are not a book
I would never advise floating broadside.



Don’t assume because it was not mentioned that it is something we do.



Forums are a collaborative effort. The purpose is to make you think.



When you are diving down the St. John with a two week tripping load and perhaps a chainsaw the tactics change from play to get down the river.



On the Yukon the last thing I wanted to do was play in Fiver Finger Rapids.(200 miles to the next town)



The mass changes, the eddy size needed changes, the turning radius changes, intertia keeps the mass spinning if started.



Do some pivots with a loaded XL tripper and do the same with an unloaded boat… You will see the difference…

and the need to plan ahead. I think you need to experience more for yourself and read less. Take an overnight trip in a safe river.



Also we often STAND in our tripping canoes while underway to scout…

there’s an eddy turn at 5:45+
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbHcCEBmjKU

no

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the extra weight eliminates eddy turning beginning with faster current shorter eddyies.

In the video, paddlers are seen moving faster where moving slower would allow the hull ferrying across the downstream rock flow sideways and slower..picking the path down not charging the rapid looking for speed control.

Crossing into the downstream eddy flow gives the brain a few extra moments to pick and choose.

not turning, placing the stern in then drawing over.....

turning, if you n friend are experts usually requires more space than available.

If there is that much space then you would be looking for an extended ferry across the current from right to left...looking for the wing dam entry !

Depends on experience and skill . . .
. . . of the tandem paddlers.



A highly experienced and slalom skilled team of tandem paddlers can dissect a rapid in a loaded tandem the same way they would in an empty tandem, but their timings and efforts on the moves would be different. However, even this team would not undertake move risks that endanger the boat and gear, which are necessary for survival. Not in remote wilderness.



A less experienced team should not try to execute little-practiced moves or take any risks in powerful current. Murphy’s Law awaits them. They should just take a careful straight line shot if one is available, and portage if one isn’t.



Alternatively, if the team wants to play a rapid and there is a big, slow and safe pool below it, they can portage the gear around the rapid and then try to play it in the empty canoe. Even then, don’t do this if there is a risk of pin – relative to skill level – in the middle of the rapid.


I think

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you need to sort this out yourself by experimenting. You don't want to be learning eddy turns and peel outs with loaded canoes on a wild canoe trip hundreds of miles from human beings. With practice you will begin to appreciate your own limitations and then you will have a good feel for what is safe to do for you in any given situation. I am an advocate for safety on wild trips. I want to get home and see my wife and children and grandchildren again. There are many techniques for working your way down a river and every situation is different. I recall one situation I was in when we collectively worked out a long combination of short portages, lining, running etc. to get through a mile or two of canyon. It took the better part of an entire day. It was very stressful and tiring. But it was safe, and it was definitely worth it because the alternative was a multi day portage through jack strawed black spruce up and out of the canyon and back down at the other end.

So I agree with the post above. Load up some canoes and paddle some whitewater in your local area along a road and experiment. And always make your decisions about how to navigate a section of water based on the least experienced member of your crew. There is absolutely no shame in a carry. The shame is going home and having to report to your buddy's wife that he perished in a set of whitewater that you tried to run. Far better to have her scared because you are two days overdue on account of a long portage but then to learn all is well and everyone is safe and sound.

I have done a fair amount of tripping and white water paddling in my day, more than some, less than others. I do not consider myself an "expert" or "advanced" paddler. The moment you start thinking of yourself that way is the moment you are setting yourself up for disaster. Respect the wilderness. Know your own limits. You can get in and out of some gorgeous country paddling a canoe - all you have to do is make good conservative decisions and know your limits.

One last thing - the issue with loaded canoes is that the weight makes everything you do take longer, you can't slow down as quickly, you can't speed up as quickly, and you can't spin as quickly. So you have to factor that into things when you are making decisions about how to get down the river.

Makes sense
OK, that’s a strategy. ET/PO not outruled as a technique per se (what do I know? Some forum member could have told me that “that’s not how you do it with loaded canoes”), but better reserved for skilled paddlers, and maybe a goal for beginners(?). No backferrying into eddies or any such thing recommended as a general strategy.



By the way, I wasn’t really talking about “playing” the rapids, just using eddies to rest or scout the next section, that is, as part of my strategy to help me get down the river.

Back ferrying and bank eddies
To me, minimal skills for paddling tandem in wilderness whitewater would be a solid back ferry, eddy turn and peel out. Assuming these skill, I would say that of course the tandem team should use them judiciously.



The back ferry is very useful to move left or right slowly to get a better line, even when straight shot paddling. If the team can back ferry, they can of course back paddle, which can be useful to slow down forward speed so as not to take as much water in standing wave haystacks.



Eddy turns for scouting or rest are an excellent idea, and should ideally be done into easy bank eddies. A dump in a bank eddy is usually fairly innocuous. A dump in a mid-current eddy or peel out can be a disaster. So, unless it’s really necessary or the team is highly skilled, I’d avoid or minimize mid-stream eddy turns and peel outs with loaded canoes in the wilderness.

Yes -
Well put Glen. I agree 100%.

I used to teach 14 year olds

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boy scouts how to back ferry and eddy set before we would paddle Webster brook (Maine) it worked well there and also on the run out below haskells rock pitch (East Branch of the Penobscot, Maine )and the Rock Castle Narrows in Kentucky with college kids, and recently even with the wife on Juniper Springs Creek to stay out of the brush. Back ferries have a time and place. As does forward aggressive paddling.

The goal is to boat under control regardless of the strategy employed. The more tools you have, and know how and when to use them, the more likely you are to be successful.

When you can slow things down or speed up when you need to, stop at will, break rapids into individual sections and also into individual moves (Ferries, eddy turns, sets, boofs, braces), then you are under control. Learning how to use both ends of the boat and understanding how the ends are affected by the current is important. Along with the paddling, learning to portage, line, run empty, scout, and even boat extraction add to the skills needed for tripping with ww. Control is the goal. Personally I hate portaging, I try to avoid it whenever possible but sometimes it's the best option.


I'm in wv, not exactly close to you but if want to work on basic ww skills I can hook you up. I boat regularly with a couple who were the oc2 national slalom champs a few years ago so unlike me some of the folks I paddle with have actual credentials. Most of my ww oc tripping experience is in the past,the 80s, but I still remember a thing or two and own a canoe. I just can't kneel for very long any more as the knees are pretty trashed. Boaters helpin' boaters, that's what we're about.

One last piece of advice- remember to lean downstream. That's about the only thing universal to ww (and that doesn't apply to squirt boats).

check out the wvwa.net website and forum for more info if you want to work on some skills and have a good time in wv.

We got an expression, "It's all good" be it canoes, kayaks, ducks, rafts, back or forward paddling, creeks or big water, and even eddy turns or sets. Just gotta figure out what to do when, that's all.

See ya on the water.

eddy set?
I’m not familiar with the term. Back ferry into an eddy, maybe?

you got it; entering stern first
into the eddy- allows you to keep your down stream facing orientation- eddy set.



It’s as simple as this- sometimes you point your bow where you want to go and sometimes you point the stern where you want to go- it’s 100% good to know how to do both.



When you get that figured out, then try all the practice (ferrying, turns, peel outs, sets) running backwards, then try a bit with your eyes closed.



The last basic ww skills clinic night that I attended, I spent more time paddling my kayak backwards than forwards. As you progress you can increase the challenge for yourself without increasing the severity of the ww if you so choose. It’s all about control- even in the Ray Charles School of kayaking (Driving)!

paddling rivers

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This is a great thread. It is obvious which people have experience in moving water.

Never believe a person that says they can do anything with a rockered boat with neutral trim.

Never believe a person that says things like stay in the main current and paddle hard.

Always believe a person that says let's pull over a look at this. Or I think we should line this one.

No one ever died on a portage.
Old Voyageur saying.

Good advice
Glenn, that makes a lot of sense to me.



As usual, I’m smarter now than before. I’m glad I asked the question.

Two questions
why no floatation on longer trips, and what other technique to depart an eddy (just go downstream?)