Eddyline Caribbean 14 vs Bic Scapa Fit

@greyheron I take none of this personal as you have obviously not paddled the boat. You can’t judge whether the valves work or if it would effect your back from where you’re sitting. Love to get you a demo. You’ve posted some incorrect assumptions.
I’m pretty sure we have the boat you want- at least based on what you posted.

It’s not just lighter it’s stiffer. More efficient. Increased performance. If I could get it done in the usa I would. This is the worlds best plastic.

It’s faster and safer than the kayaks mentioned on this thread. In fact, those kayaks are not in the same league performance wise. Every kayak I’m importing out performs the Eddyline. By a lot.

It’s a chat room so okay to say whatever. But I’ve paddled all these kayaks.

Ps the swell Scupper 14 is $1149. The wilderness systems tarpon is $1099. Let’s get informed before we go saying the swell is overpriced. And the Swell obviously has more expensive features.

Swell Scupper 12: $899
Wilderness Systems Tarpon 120: $999
Our kayak will be less.

Still not buying the reason for manufacturing in Africa.
“the worlds best plastic” is a very vey subjective statement since there are many ways to judge the material. I’m pretty sure that you can manufacture with any material you would like here, within reason. It is a matter of cheap labor, cheap place to do business and people being willing to choose cheaper over American jobs. Plus shipping between Africa and Europe isn’t too bad compared to shipping from the inexpensive manufacturing in Asia.
To me the Eddyline that you say you out perform is a nice plastic, it’s 50 pounds and it’s made in the U.S.A. The price difference is well worth it for the lighter American made boat in my opinion.

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I realize this is a chart room but people are just opening up and implying things. Sheesh.
-I’ve manufactured USA the past 2 years. We’ve been behind on orders the whole time. Had quality issues. I’ve contacted every pertinent roto molder in the country about our kayak, and quite frankly, we don’t fit well into anyone’s plans. No complaints, but we couldn’t find the right fit. Now we are executing a plan with a South African partner which includes American factory production within a few years. Cheap my ass. It’s more expensive. We’re on a quest to build the best kayak possible and treat the customer right.
-Absolutely correct “Best Plastic” is not easy to throw around. It’s an opinion. Let me explain: thermo formed plastic is light but it is not rigid- that’s why they place stiffener bars across the kayak in certain places. This makes the kayak literally jiggle as it is paddled across the water-causes vibrations that decrease efficiency and speed. The 2-layer foam backed plastic we will be utilizing is not just lighter, it’s stiffer. If you stand on the hull, or seat, or center pillar it doesn’t flex anywhere near what normal roto plastic does. That makes it track better and just makes for a better kayak. That’s the best plastic in my opinion. The thermos formed plastic is cool, and weight is a factor everyone should consider, especially off the water. But any engineer would agree that it doesn’t make for the best paddling kayak.
Just need to add that I understand buying a kayak is a personal decision based on where you paddle, who paddles it, how much you want to spend and like 30 other considerations. Everyone has their own equation and that’s why all thee kayaks are pertinent. Good luck to all- sorry to hijack the thread.

I am looking forward to paddling your boat, should the opportunity happen. I could care less about water in the footwell. A wet butt is a different story.

Butt stays dry. Water gets into the footwell, valves drain it from there. We do not have seat area scuppers, so you need several gallons of water accumulated in order to get a wet butt. If you’re taking on waves that fast and big, chances are you’d have a wet butt in any sit on top.
The lowered center of gravity is 100% what gives the kayak it’s unique advantages.

@Swell_Watercraft, this may be a little aside of the topic, but while you’re here maybe you could help me understand something I have a vague theory about.

It goes like this: All the rotomolded PE SOTs I’ve seen have some variety of linear folding in their hulls. Not the case with at least one thermoformed boat, the Hurricane Skimmer. My thinking is that the PE needs those folds to maintain its shape and not act like a water balloon. I’ll grant that the thermoformed boats may have foam blocks in them for structural stiffness–Bic, at least, says so straight up about their Scapa, but they also use PE in a tri-hull shape.

I believe you’re on to something with the material. Evidently–foam blocks or no–ABS is a lot lighter than PE; witness the 50-pound Skimmer and Caribbean, compared to Bic’s Java, 13’5" x 28" and 64 lbs, even as a two-sheet construction rather than rotomolded. They do not mention the use of foam in that boat.

Now, I’m not sure what this “2-layer foam backed plastic” of yours is, but I can envision a 3-layer material with fairly rigid outsides sandwiching a rigid but mostly hollow honeycomb plastic. In the book “Structures”, J.E. Gordon talks about the importance of well-engineered holes. Of course this would require sheet-formed parts, but it may be something to look into, if you haven’t already.

If it takes 18 pounds off the weight of the boat, it’ll float higher and accumulate less water in the footwells.

Finally, can you show us some pictures of the bottom of your boat?

not much help here…sorry

The hull is based on Tim Niemier’s Scupper Pro model and his “tri-bump” hull he originally built to fit a scuba tank into the hull for. It turns out this is a fast hull with great secondary stability.

here we are at the beginning of the process looking at the OK Scupper Pro vs. Nirmier’s thermoformed prototype.

Thanks for bringing back an iteration of the Scupper Pro. I have two OK Scupper Pros for almost ten years now, that I bought used. I don’t let these go because I would be afraid of not being able to replace them. Great for fishing. I have loaded them up and gone out for week long Boston Harbor Island camping with my non-paddling college roommate. I have taken other non-paddlers out in the SP and feel more comfortable doing that then putting them inside some SINK. With thigh braces, I can easily roll the SP. I can comfortably maintain a paddling speed of 3-3.5 MPH, which is generally what folks would do in a group paddle anyway (unless the group is made of a bunch of racing types).

Great boat and worth bringing back into the market.


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Thanks for the pics, @Swell_Watercraft. I’m well familiar with the general shape; I enjoyed a few good years with an OK Scrambler back in the 90s.

One thing that stands out is the shape of the scupper holes, especially the foremost pair, those two seem to have no venturi contour at all. The ones on the Scrambler were strongly contoured fore and aft and very effective.

Aside from that, it’s got very sleek entry and exit.

@greyheron the foremost scupper holes are ABOVE the waterline and do not allow water to flow-this is purely a safety item in the case the cockpit was flooded. So venture is not applicable to those scuppers.

they are exhibit S in this diagram- safety scuppers.

The Epic V7 got the 2-layer poly process starting by hiring Celliers Kruger (formerly of Fluid Kayaks) in South Africa to build the first poly surfski. Once he figured out the process, he built a few thousand of these. Then he started his own brand called Vagabond, and now Celliers is making my kayaks. And I am importing his.

Ah, that’s what those are. I didn’t fully understand that from the description.

Actually, I still don’t understand. They seem redundant. Why wouldn’t the other scuppers drain the boat, no matter how much water was in it? Are you assuming the scupper plugs would be in the closed position?

I took my Scrambler on a water release with a group–second day I owned it–anyway, there was this nice little pour-over between a couple big rocks, with a big standing wave below it. Down I went, punched into the wave, and was suddenly up to my chest in the river. I don’t think it took five seconds for the boat to drain.

Would a siphon work?

@greyheron can you describe “linear folding” more in depth? Not sure what you meant.

The tri-hull shape. All the rotomolded SOTs use a variation of it; that’s a sort of convergent evolution. But how much is it needed to stiffen the hull? Quite a lot, I’m thinking.

My Perception Tribe has recessed square channels. You just look at those and think, yeah, that’s for structural stiffness.