Repair
In the field in three steps.
- clean area with alcohol
- Wet out fiberglass tape with adhesive
- Put wet tap over crack
20 minutes later you paddle away.
I can hardly wait
– Last Updated: Feb-03-11 10:30 AM EST –
...for the hyundai of sea kayaks to arrive!
Seriously, here's the thing: kayak manufacturers have and will continue to sell poly boats. So, obviously this discerning market has an appetite for poly kayaks, even without the discount you feel is appropriate. Fact is they are selling.
Now let's look at TF, a relatively new product. It weighs less than poly, finishes much nicer, weighs less, sounds almost as durable as composite and is apparently almost as easy to repair. In light of all that, why do you think this option should be sold at such a discount? To me it is a step above poly, and at this point in it's history is perhaps just below composite.
In the end the market will decide. But the continued prodction of poly boats and the spread of this material leads me to think that the bean-counters are on to something.
Material
It appears that you are under the impression that Carbonlite is a polyethelene material when you suggest that NDK,P&H have similar offerings. This is a much different material whose primariy ingredient is ABS. Of the fine companies that you mentioned, only Valley has a similar offering.
repair
Great Analysis. Look at my last post on repair.
For what it is worth, Polyethelene, Carbonlite and Fiberglass kayaks all start out as plastic resin.
Material
It appears that you are under the impression that Carbonlite is a polyethelene material when you suggest that NDK,P&H have similar offerings. This is a much different material whose primariy ingredient is ABS. Of the fine companies that you mentioned, only Valley has a similar offering.
Delta
They do indeed make a nice product
I have been critical of the cost as well
– Last Updated: Feb-03-11 3:21 PM EST –
I suppose that in the back of my mind I have heard people refer to car interiors and other consumer goods as "cheap plastic". I have heard they keep taking cost out of "it" by replacing metal parts with cheap plastic, or "it's too plastic-ey". Plastic has recieved a bad rap at times because of cheap and poorly made toys and other goods produced. There is plastic, and then there is plastic. I complained to the Eddyline rep that I could buy a glass Valley for $400 more than the Fathom, why would I buy the Fathom? Answer- Why do I keep wanting the Fathom? I think as it relates to the purchase of a Eddyline produced thermalformed boat, compare the two boats heads up with no consideration for the cost to manufacture. Appearance,stiffness,repairability,toughness, comfort, handling, speed, rolling, storage, ergonomics, weight, resale, and cost. If the tally sheet puts the Eddyline made boat in the lead, are you going to say "yeah, but I think it costs less to produce so I am not paying that"? My experience on resale for the Eddyline made boats has been pretty good, or at least equal in percentage of original cost to my composite boats. Anyone know what the mold for a thermalformed boat costs? You would sh*t your pants if you had to come up with that kind of coin. That money must be recovered in the price of the boat. I sympathize with the struggle to pay big money for "plastic". My answer is as bowrudder put it "there is plastic and there is plastic". Compare heads up and let the boats do the talking. I want a Fathom. I want a Rockpool even more, but I don't fit. Bill
nice analysis
If the market cxan sustain this material it’s good to have choices.
Another thing to point out is that fiberglass boats have been around for decades. TF have not. Conceivably there are more improvements to be made to the material as TF kayaks become more commonplace.
I Think
that with the seat removed …replaced…You would fit in.
They are never on the show room that way…it’s a guess…but the Rockpool is not low volume
Best Wishes
Roy
Hey Roy, got any liquid water up there?
I tried Steve Sapienza’s Alaw Bach TCC last fall and he has a modified seat to provide a little more clearance and I still did not fit in it. I suppose I could get out the dremel like I have in so many other boats, but I would like to paddle the hull before I buy and start cutting. Stay warm bud. You making any modular paddles this winter? Bill
Hi Bill
There is liquid water around the North shore…it was below zero (F) again this morning with a breeze that they say make it a minus 16 wind chill today…not too conducive to working in a little paddling.
the south shore is locked in…hard to get to the water without a dog team.
Yes I’ve been making a few paddles …just for entertainment:)
I have several that I’ve been thinking on for some time.
still making all the jigs. It’s going to be a Greenland paddle , of course …all parts are interchangiable…any loom length with any paddle length, two differant shoulder configurations and so far three differant blade widths.
not sure how many I’m going to make (they cost a lot to make)…have about 5 of them in the works right now…too bad there isn’t any real money in all this play.
Best Wishes
Roy
Roy, keep me in mind.
I will be a customer:) 89-91 inches, semi shouldered, 3.25 width with a sharper lead and a loom around 21. Should you find yourself wanting to part with one, please keep me in mind. Bill
I see your point …
Kinda reminds me of a comedian I heard several years ago talking about how different parts of the country use more exotic sounding names to describe what is essentially the same thing. Nor’easter: snow; l nino: rain.
Polyethylene or polythene (IUPAC name polyethene or poly(methylene)) is the most widely used plastic…
Acrylonitrile butadiene styrene (ABS) (chemical formula (C8H8)x· (C4H6)y·(C3H3N)z) is a common plastic…
; )
My impression of the Alaws TCC I looked at: plastic.
Now, the boat did not appear at first blush to be made the same as, say, the plastic P&H (which was next to it). And “what is this made of” was my first question. So I did not immediately think “plastic”. A closer look was needed, compared to roto molded, which can be spotted from across a showroom.
But after a few moments, “plastic” was the unquestionable conclusion.
I will concede, however, that “very nice” preceded “plastic” in my mind. So, on visuals alone, the boat made a good impression, and, with no price tag on it, if I had been in the market for a plastic boat, this one would have easily been on the top of the list. And not just the build but the lines as well.
But with the $3,000 price tag revealed, “for plastic!” was the immediate reaction. That’s glass territory.
I’ll accept that there is a difference between TCC and roto molded boats, and that there’s a higher manufacturing cost. I’ll even accept that it’s a better build and worth a premium.
I guess I struggle with it costing the same as glass. I know you said 30% value to glass, but you’re referring to glass Alaws I think. I’m comparing to NDK, Valley, P&H glass, which can be had for $3,000 as well.
Anyway, great discussion, and best wishes with your boats.
Sorry, just had time to read …
… through all of your post. I appreciate the thoughtful response.
Yes, I agree that man hours drive cost of goods, and since Eddyline boats require more labor to produce there would be a legitimate cost to manufacture.
On the other hand, I don’t think, and I may be completely wrong here, that there is as much labor involved in glass layups.
Also agree that there is a cost for craftsmanship, in that two similar items, made the same way, and of the same materials, and perhaps even indiscernible to the casual observer as finished products, can command very different prices based on the individual skill and reputation of the crafter.
And perhaps even the cost of raw materials cost the same, regardless if the end result is a roto molded boat, thermoformed, or glass.
What I’m not sure of is that Eddyline’s process requires the same level of craftsmanship or labor hours as a glass layup. Which leads to the question of why does the finished product cost the same as glass?
One factor may be if there is a licensing fee. The company making these USA Alaws may not be Rockpool itself.
Another factor that drives production cost is when you don’t make the product yourself, such as in this case where Eddyline is the manufacturer. If this US company selling Alaws is NOT part of Eddyline, then Eddyline needs to make their margins, and then so does the US Rockpool company.
A third factor is volume. There is efficiency in quantity. These boats are new here, so I can’t imagine production is that high yet.
So, while these may be, and I have no doubt are, a better version of plastic, and an excellent sea kayak by design, their $3,000 cost, the same as the finest crafted glass boats from impeccable builders, reflects more mark up than craftsmanship.
Of course this is not my business, so I can only speculate and arm chair quarterback. BUT if it were, here’s what I’d do: calculate what volume I would need to do in # of boats to be able to sell and make my margin at under $2,000 per boat, taking Eddyline out of the equation (IOW, being my own producer).
If that looked doable, then I’d investment spend to drive that volume by dropping the retail to somewhere right smack in the middle between a good rotomolded boat and a brit built glass boat. Maybe list just over $2,000, but with incentives to sell under $2,000.
Then I’d get these in the hands of as many guides and instructors as possible. Next, incentivize dealers to take these on and push them.
There’s no doubt in my mind that the design is solid. And I’ll accept that these are better than roto, and the process more efficient than glass. And I’ll go further and speculate this may be the next generation material and process, as glass becomes too expensive.
So now may be the time to be aggressive, catch the leading brit glass boats before they get into this same process, and establish Rockpool TCC as a leader rather than a niche.
Cost of material
Regarding costs of the three major kayak manufacturing processes,; fiberglass Composite, Polyethelene and TCC
First Poly. Hi Mold cost(50K), Low labor cost (1-2 man hour, low material cost($200-$300)
Composite. Low mold cost, low material cost($400), high labor cost(24-30 man hours)
TCC. High mold cost ($18 -$25K, medium labor cost(5-7 man hours), high material cost($700 to $800)
Rockpool TCC boats are made domestically and the material is 100% recyclable saving both overseas shipping costs, and with less risk to workers. You have probably noticed that there is a steady stream of composite manufacturers taking their manufacturing to parts of the world where labor and environmental restrictions are dramatically lower. I am very proud to be making products utilizing state of the art design, a green foot print and high tech domestic manufacturing methods.
Chris Mitchell
Reed/Rockpool North America
Still
Just an amateur…not a good business man…
I make Blems and paddle with them.(been playing with differant lay-ups too lately, no two are alike)
Sorry…I still don’t have too many paddles Bill.
I just like to have optional paddles to use or lend:)
Best Wishes
Roy
Chris, all good points and really
important in many ways, however, my point is simply this- let the boat speak for itself in a heads up comparison to any other boat and type of manufacture. If your boat receives higher marks (and I suspect it will in many comparisons), who cares what it costs to manufacture. Superior products command superior prices. Just because it is a form of plastic does not mean you should have to somehow back into a “reasonable” price. The boat stands on its own two feet and for it’s own merits. I don’t care if it is made from gold or dog sh*t, how does it compare to my other opportunities? Answer- favorably in my opinion. I wish I had every dollar I spent trying to repair my composite boats for damage that would not have happened in a thermalformed boat. With that money I could easily by a new Fathom or Alaw Bach TCC. Please continue to refine your product and I wish you all the best in your endeavor. Bill
I liked your line in another post
"I complained to the Eddyline rep that I could buy a glass Valley for $400 more than the Fathom, why would I buy the Fathom? The answer: Why do I keep wanting the Fathom?"
That’s the question: Why do you want THAT boat?
Obviously there’s something about it that attracts you, that keeps pulling you back to that corner of the store. It’s just your head overrules and says “plastic shouldn’t cost that much!” But it is what it is. You wouldn’t be attracted to it if it weren’t nice. Your aesthetic sensibilities are telling you something loud and clear.
Beauty is in the eye of the …
… Beholder. A very true statement in almost all things, but especially cars and boats.
Once we fall in love with one, we can rationalize what ever we need to justify it.
The material cost on your boat …
… is the big surprise to me. Kinda figured costs would be much closer, with roto being the cheapest.
Yes I’ve noticed the migration overseas on composite. So far this has not seemed to effect he brits too much, but at some point it’s got to. Eventually it may impact the places composite mfg’ing has shifted too.
One downside to that has got to be development of new boats, given the cost of molds. This could mean fewer prototypes in years to come?
One thing about your boats is the weight. Do you see that going down? Glass weight is down these days. Weight is a key for me, and why I went glass years ago.
Anyway, good luck with your boats.