Same value as yak rolling
like I said, my OC1 combat roll is dicey at best.
But the last time it did work for me was after the first of four drops in the gorge on the Warner in NH. I don’t know who was happier, me cause I wasn’t swimming the other three drops or my yakking buds cause they wern’t chasing me and my boat. I was not the only one who needed to roll there either.
I did have to eddy out and dump my boat but even that is faster and easier than swimming!
purposes
I learned the canoe roll mostly so I could screw around at playspots and try harder lines in safe rapids without having to swim every time I let myself get flipped.
I have to admit, though, that it’s fun to see the looks on the kayakers’ faces when you roll back up :). So there’s a bit of party trick mentality to it, too.
I don’t think the canoe roll is nearly as great a self rescue option as the K1/C1 roll, since you come up at least 2/3 full of water when you roll an open boat. In the typical pool or benign runount below most class 3 playspots, that’s not a big deal. But if there are hazards involved, not getting flipped in the first place is the best policy. I suppose it’s still better to be piloting a swamped boat in the middle of a tough drop rather than swimming it, but in some cases probably only marginally better. One of the things I consider when scouting a drop is whether it’s better to swim if I flip or try to roll. On the other hand, in my decked boat incarnation, it’s assumed that the roll is always the preferred option.
2 cboats links
– Last Updated: Jan-28-06 5:12 PM EST –
For more advice, much of it the same: outfitting, set up, patience, and practice, check these cboats threads:
http://cboats.net/cforum/viewtopic.php?t=4415&highlight=rolling
and
http://cboats.net/cforum/viewtopic.php?t=4307&highlight=rolling
And there are many more there, including some links to video etc.
P.
OC roll
– Last Updated: Jan-28-06 3:12 PM EST –
Rolling an OC is more difficult than rolling a kayak but it is definately worth the effort.
Being upright, even filled with water, beats swimming 99% of the time. (My roll is not quite bomb proof yet, but it's pretty close).
An OC1 roll is basically a super-duper low brace.
Practice by flipping to your onside, and doing an extreme low brace. You want to get to the point where you can lie in the water (perpendicular to the boat) for as long as you want, and still right the boat.
That's 90% of the roll; the rest is setting up and getting into the extreme low brace position.
From the extreme low brace position (lying outstretched in the water, face down, perpendicular to the boat):
Keep your head pressed against your shaft hand/paddle with the grip near your navel. Arch your back and look up towards the water surface. Arch enough so that the paddle blade is just out of the water.
While keeping your head pressed against the paddle, snap your torso down by bending at the waist. Think of the paddle as an extension of your torso. While your doing that, pull up (away from the bottom of the boat) with your onside knee and push down (towards the bottom of the boat) with your offside knee.
(If you paddle on the left, your left knee is your onside knee. Even flipped over, that is still your onside knee).
Don't push down with your arms! Your arms are basically along for the ride during the whole procedure.
Keep your head in the water for as long as possible. When you can see the side of the boat, then then slide your upper body across the gunnel into the boat. Try to scrape the gunnels with your nose as you cross. Don't bring your head up until your nose reaches the opposite (offside) gunnel.
When starting out, it sometimes helps to choke up on the paddle a bit- with your grip hand up closer to your sternum (but still keeping your shaft hand near your forehead).
When you flip to your onside, most of the time you will already be at or close to the extreme low brace position, so setting up is easy.
When you flip to your offside, the setup gets a little more complicated, and a bit hard to describe in words- best to have someone show it to you. (If your interested in a verbal description, PM me).
Once you've learned the OC roll, be prepared for cheers and applause almost every time you do it. ;)
more, more
OC1, that was a great description of the onside roll.
Why not carry on and explain the motions when you’ve flipped to your offside? It seems you have a way with words.
I’d describe it as, when upside down, sculling your blade across the bow of your boat in a high brace position (power face down, leading edge feathered up slightly); then, when your paddle is back over on your onside, flip the power face over to the low brace position, and get set to roll.
P.
CBoat Discussion so it’s not lost
Hopefully this thread will get archived on pnet. Would hate to somehow lose the good Cboat thread so here it is:
Tommy T
Ha! I got all excited last weekend because my OC roll actualy worked when I needed it.
Which is to say that it often doesn’t. Even this time I think it only worked because I was momentarily out of the current at the bottom of the drop that dumped me.
So I’m looking for tips on how to take my fairly reliable pool roll and turn it into a reliable combat roll.
One thing I know is that in the pool I often need to scul myself into position before I can roll up. I find that hard to do when I’m upside down in fast current not to mention banging over rocks and all that.
So what’s the fastest, safest way to get my boat all the way over, paddle to the surface so that I can bring it up?
chuck naill
Dear Tommy,
Try just focusing on your hips. Hitting rocks and swift water will focus you on your upper body. By focusing on your hip snap you will roll more quickly and with better success.
Try this at your next pool session and see if I am correct.
Jim Michaud
Chuck is absolutely correct. Concentrate on bringing your knees up to your head. By trying to bring your knees to your head it’s impossible to raise your head which is a major factor in missing a roll.
sbroam
Roll a lot. I mean as often as you can - focus on doing it right and your “rolling muscles” will get stronger. In flat water you might be able to get by with an 80% roll but in current, rocks, etc, you might need a 90-100% roll. And then there are times when you need that 110% roll…
What do I mean by a % roll? For me, there are a lot of times where sloppy technique would still get me up in a pool or even on the river where conditions favored me, such as onside in a hole - that might be a less than 100% that still worked. Then there are those times when you need a roll with clean technique executed vigorously, patience, and that little bit extra - far more than you need in a pool but just what you need bouncing through a shallow rapid trying to roll upstream in a swamped open boat.
How do you practice for that? Work on making your roll fast - even to the point of overrolling - try executing 2,3,4 rolls in succession. Then practice in current - peal out, flip down stream; peal out, flip upstream. And even when you aren’t flipping so much anymore, practice some or you will get rusty
cheajack
I first get into a set up making sure my paddle is out of the water, then it is all about my knees. I throw my offside knee away from me at the same time pulling my onside knee to my chest (don’t quit this until you are upright. Just an instant before I throw my off side away from me, I “cock” it by drawing it quickly into my chest then immediately throw it away pulling on the onside knee. It makes for a fast dynamic roll. Bests, Jack
billcanoes
When I was learning to roll I practiced in every shallow water I could- The first time I hit a rock I swam- but when you get used to hitting rocks left and right they no longer become a distraction.
Glenn
My advice… Once on the river, take as many opportunities as you can get to roll in current and then roll some more! Try rolling in different currents – fast and flat, slow choppy, aerated, etc… Continued practice in moving water is definitely a step towards a good combat roll.
Here are a couple of things that seemed to help me:
I used to get really disoriented when upside down, especially if flipping to my off side. I found that after lots and lots of attempts things finally seemed a little less confusing when upside down. I dare say that sometimes I feel almost comfortable tucked up against the air bag!
If you spend enough time working on the roll, you’ll get used to the new surroundings and things should become easier to figure out.
Sometimes it’s very important to wait a moment to let your boat catch up to the speed of the current. I used to flip and immediate initiate my roll… I was struggling with it and the Great Gonzo mentioned that I should sometimes wait for the boat to catch up with the current. It sure helped… it also gives you a second to collect your thoughts and really focus on the role.
When it’s really important to nail the role… Take a second to make sure you are set up right, focus on a quick snap and absolutely keep that head down.
Sir Adam
A word of caution when practicing Bill’s “rock and roll” manuevers…make sure someone else is with you, AND knows what you’re trying to do. An avid kayaker (I know, I know) about 15 years ago now was teaching a class in the Pacific North-West and rolled over. The class waited…and waited…and waited. Apparently when he rolled over his helmet became lodged in some rocks. It is suspected he didn’t know it, and tried to roll, tweaking his spine (hopefully rendering him unconcious). Many minutes later one of the class was very worried, and paddled over to his boat (this was all in flat water, mind you). Needless to say CPR didn’t work…
*one note on this one-the fellow in question was a Geology Major at Colby College, where I went to school, and was a recent graduate…there’s now a “field geologist” award that goes to a senior geology major displaying characteristics of leadership and an interest in field geology. The above tale has been passed down through the dept., so it can probably be taken with a grain of salt (e.g. was it his neck, or did he suffer other medical trauma when he rolled in flat water)…
ChrisKelly
Like Dumbo with his black feather. This ais all about our heads.
I agree with all the technical advice above and would esp second the stuff about keeping your head down. For me and for most people I’ve seen a raised head is the number one culprit.
As to the MoJo; the technique of a pool roll and a combat roll are the same. I just never miss a pool roll until I get tired. when I swim in the river it is always becaus I freaked. If I relax and say “I’m not coming out” I come up. The more gnarely the rapid the more important it is that we get up and the more likely it is that the river is screwing with us. (hole, rock ledge, shallow, eddy line etc.)
A good thing to do, both to get the boat in position and to get your head right is to curl up inside for a second. Get a breath, relax and proceed to roll as you would in the pool.
Get a MOJO and clip it to the bottom of your boat. When you are upside down, look at it, take a breath and do your thing. I myself have glassed a picture of Raquel Welch to the bottom of my boat. She helps me pay attention
yarnellboat
Sounds like I’m at about the same stage as you.
I think the biggest reason for me missing a roll on the river is 1) I haven’t practiced enough in the pool and haven’t developed the auto-pilot muscle-memory, so practice lots; and 2) that I’m anxious to roll up and start too early, especially getting my face out of water too early - take the extra second to relax, know that your set up, and recognize that your face needs to be in the river.
Nessmuk
I must be a bit weird- I don’t think of my knees at all when I roll (I don’t even really know what they’re doing).
I just visualize myself pushing down on the paddle with my head, by bending at the waist.
I’ve rolled mine
oh, wait–you mean come back up still in the canoe—nevermind…
CBoat Discussion II
ohioboater
I’m nearly there with my OC roll, but my finish just doesn’t work. I sweep out to 90 degrees, rotate up on top of the paddle, shaft hand on forehead, and start the hipsnap. I try to leave my face in the water as long as possible and then brush my nose across both gunnels, but one of two things happens:
- I keep my face/body in the water, and then the boat just hangs with me still in the water and slowly comes back over.
- I feel the wrong knee engage as I begin moving my face across the onside gunnel, with the predicted result of pulling the boat back over on top of me. I guess that means I’m lifting my head, but it doesn’t feel that way. In fact, I can’t figure out how to get my head/body moving across the gunnel without engaging that offside knee. So I guess I’m doing something fundamentally wrong there. Any ideas what? Or descriptions on what it should feel like when I’m doing it right?
The whole time, my shaft hand is plastered to my forehead, so I don’t think I’m pushing on the paddle. But it feels like I run out of roatation range before the boat gets past its secondary stability point. At the end of my last practice, I did find that extending my t-grip hand toward the bottom of the pool (like shown in that Foote video) during setup made the snap/roatation feel less strained, but I still was getting hung up with those last few degrees of rotation.
sbroam
How’s your outfitting? Are your knees secure? Is your butt lifting off the seat?
What’s your pedestal like? Are you getting a dam effect? If you have a large pedestal, water can pile up on the “uphill” side as you are rolling up and it can stall you at the most inopportune time. I have bored a hole or cut notches through all of my saddles.
When learning to roll my OC-1, I got stuck like that for a while, even with good outfitting. Repeated practice cured it. Can’t say exactly what I was doing wrong, I just took longer than most to learn. Stick with it and good luck!
Mikey B
Have someone watch you and see if you are rotating your shoulders too soon. Think like you’re going to touch your nose to your onside knee. It’s easy to try and sweep across too soon when first starting out. It should feel kinda like you are sliding back into the boat as you are rolling up…which will make pulling up with the onside knee and pushing down with the offside seem natural without thinking about it.
Ditto on Scott’s observation about a hole or channel for the water to flow through the saddle/pedestal.
If you can hook up with someone you can probably have it solved in minutes.
ChrisKelly
it is possible that your saddle is too high. I have 2 Rivals; one of which was coming up every time and I was having trouble with the other one. My seat was maybe 2 inches higher in the 2nd boat (which I bought already outfitted). I cut it back and that helped a lot.
However, after all is said, I am going to guess that you are raising your head. I know that you say that your head in on the shaft and that you are keeping it down to the gunwales but for me at least, when I miss a roll it is almost always because I raise my head.
The suggestion to have someone (who knows what they are looking at) watch is very good. Or, have someone video you.
Randy Dodson
I know that I sometimes bring my head up too soon even though I don’t really feel like I’m bringing it up too soon.
When I rolled a friend’s Spanish Fly, it would come up so quick and easy that I didn’t have time too bring my head up too soon. That’s when I realized that I had probably been lifting my head too soon even when it didn’t feel like it in my Ovation.
ohioboater
Now I’ve got some things to focus on tonight at the pool. I’ll bring my video camera and tripod to see if I can get some useful footage.
I’m in a Probe with Mohawk’s factory outfitting, so the saddle is pretty long. My knees can only move maybe an inch upward when I’m pressed into the retainer strap. Not sure about my butt lifting.
What’s the best way to bore a hole? Piece of PVC pipe with the end beveled?
Mikey B
You should have no problems rolling up the Probe if it has Mohawk outfitting. Having some foam glued to the sides of the hull when up and full of water is nice though
Just make sure you are arching your back to the surface, and when you do your snap, stick with the crunch…concentrate on bringing your nose to your knee. You will be swinging down and then forward, but keep your shoulders flat to help keep your head down. The Probe will pretty much want to right itself once you get past the turning point…helping with the pushing/pulling with the wrong knee.
I’m betting you aren’t going far enough with the snap before trying to come up and across the rails…in effect lifting your head too soon. Let us know what you discover at the pool
sbroam
I had a similarly large pedestal - it started out as a Team Edge saddle that was braced between two thwarts. I took the footpegs off and cut the hole between the front and back attachments. I can’t remember exactly how I cut it, but I put a 4" (?) diameter PVC joint in the hole, the kind for butting two pieces of pipe together.
I think taking a piece of pipe and cutting some notches around the end would make a good boring tool.
billcanoes
Hi Ohioboater-
I think your outfitting sounds mighty fine- Check to see if there is an arch about 1.5" by 4" already notched out for water transfer- my last Viper was factory outfitted and was notched for h20 transfer-
I’m not sure if it was due to rolling too quickly -but when I first started trying to roll the same thing happened- To get the boat up (some of the time) I would do another hip snap as a finale.
Now, when I roll, the only thing I think about is putting my knees/the boat under me.
yarnellboat
Awesome responses!
Let us know how it goes and what elements/advice helped you out.
I’ve got to get to a pool
fez
what helped my very much was to give my body some kind of “picture” ore “impression” (difficult to describe…) of the movement it has to do. To tell him what the komplexe movement “feels like”.
I am working with three “pictures”, works perfekt - and these are:
- I pull my onside knee to my onside ear.
- I push my forehead (on the shafthand) strong into the water.
- I pull my ellbow of the griphand (along my stomach and then away from the body) over the offside gunnel.
Greetings from Germany
keez
Take a look at Bob Foote’s web site. He has an excellent article on rolling an OC-1. Just follow the steps - exactly - and the boat will come up no problem.
I paddle a Nitro, with Mike Yee outfitting. Water build-up around the saddle has never been an issue.
Try getting the roll right before butchering your boat.
Good luck.
Once you get the roll, your confidence and paddling will go to a whole new level.
Geoff
ohioboater
I went to the pool tuesday night armed with the video camera and yall’s suggestions. I missed about 6 or 7 attempts at first, then BANG, it all clicked, and I was up. Someone in a past thread said that, once you get it, you’ll tell yourself, “this is so easy, how could I have not gotten it before?”. They’re right. The movement makes perfect sense once you get it right that first time. I still missed a few rolls that night, but every time I knew what I did wrong.
So what was the key? Three things:
- Making sure to extend my t-grip hand away from my stomach towards the bottom of the pool before starting my knee drive. For me, at least, if I don’t do this, the paddle doesn’t stay flat on the surface long enough.
- Making sure my shoulders are squared with the bottom. This, combined with the t-grip hand movement in #1 apparently is what insures that the paddle blade doesn’t wind up with a diving angle. You can see this really well by comparing my missed roll clip below with the successful ones.
- Consciously thinking “read the label on the side of the boat” so that I complete those last few degrees of rotation.
BTW, a good indicator that you are keeping your head low enough is when your nose plugs get scraped off by the offside gunnel!
Video links:
http://woodenflutes.com/paddling/bad_oc_roll.mov
http://woodenflutes.com/paddling/oc_roll1.mov
http://woodenflutes.com/paddling/oc_roll2.mov
ChrisKelly
to change it from a parlor trick to a useful skill when actually in whitewater. I had to, and still have to, fight through the urge to pull and get out. I think I am virtually always better off in the boat than in the river so hang in there and roll… and keep thinking about your roll basics rather than the river.