Thanks Ice
I should know better than to ask you about stability - but how much different is V-10s from XT? Significantly? With a heavier paddler maybe more even? I’ve tried an XT breifly - and stability was certainly OK for what I want to do - but can’t remember much else about it.
I may have to do a demo road trip - but need a boat budget first!
KayakPro Nemo or Marlin
If you are considering a Epic 18X or Rapier you should have a look at the new KayakPro Nemo or Marlin.
To my trained eye, the Nemo and Marlin appear to be the best designed kayaks that meet the USCA 18 ft Spec.
The Nemo recently won the “touring” class of a New England race and also beat every “Unlimited” kayak across the line.
The Rapier should be banned by the USCA because it only meets the 18ft Spec beam requirement by the use of artificial wings. This is no different than gluing buttons to the side of your kayak in order to meet the USCA beam requirement.
Thew EPic 18X still has the wagging tail rudder system which has generated much discussion here on P,Net and elswhere.
Check out the new Nemo and Marlin. KayakPro seems to have nailed that USCA niche with those two boats.
Maybe a clarification is due?
I have nothing but praise for the KayakPro products, I own two of them. I hold a high opinion of Grayson. But maybe you should clarify that the race in New England you mentioned where the Nemo/Marlin beat out all the Unlimiteds was paddled by Grayson, an olympic medalist, or am I talking about a different race? If I am, my apologies.
A couple years back in a race in South Florida an Epic 18 beat out all the unlimited in a very good field, it wasn’t even close. The race, The Bacall, the paddler, Greg Barton.
HEX
There’s a fairly significant difference
If you’re comfortable in an XT you should be able to get comfortable in a V10 pretty quickly, but there is a difference.
Xt Vs. V10
– Last Updated: Jun-29-07 10:16 AM EST –
Yes there is a difference, but nothing that can be overcome very quickly like the feeling of moving from a 23' to a 21' wide sea kayak. One feels it, but does not stop one for paddling it. For instance, the stability loss of going from a Mako 6, Huki, and V10 to the Mako Mill is far greater than the stability loss from the V10s to Xt (proportionally speaking).
However, these are two very different boats, quality (construction) and performance wise. SA boats in the US have SA quality at US prices :( . In addition, in the long run, the single footwell will complete dominate the market; by pushing closer to the center of the boat, the sideway movement is reduced, and its tight foot straps really allow you to have control of the boat while in the surf.
By the way, if one of these days you are around here (ATL) feel free to e-mail me, so we arrange for you a demo/paddle with the boats.
Sport?
Dunno
Haven’t tried the Sport. V10 is a lot more stable than Mako Millenium, so I’d guess that the Sport would compare favorably to the XT, but that’s just a guess. I wasn’t too wild about the XT I had, but that may have been more of a paddler issue than a boat issue.
V10 Sport vs. XT
Greyak,
I’ve paddled both at length; friend has the Sport in the Ultra layup and I have the XT in fg (which I’m now going to post for sale). From my point of view, the XT has more stability overall, both initial and secondary. It’s a ‘user friendly’ ski, and although your Mark 1 is touted as an intermediate ski, you’ll notice quite a difference between the two. The Sport is noticeably faster than the XT; comparable to my EFT in terms of speed. For me at least, on the GPS the Sport is .3 to .4 mph faster than the XT, at a perceived level of exertion/HR. This may not seem like a lot looking solely at the numbers, but on the water, especially when racing your friends-smile-you wish you had those extra tenths.
I’m 198 lbs. and find the Sport extremely comfortable, if a little large side to side in the seat well. The XT is comfortable for me also, but I rub my back raw when rotating-something that’s very easy to do with how stable this boat is.
I’d give the nod to the XT in rougher conditions, but this is likely a reflection of my comfort level. The layup difference I’m sure factors in to perceived stability; the lighter boats tend to feel a little more on edge, and are more sensitive to windy conditions. Unless you were out and out racing, I would probably not opt for the Ultra layup on the Epic. Besides the cost factor, they are exceedingly fragile and dent and puncture easily. Our coastlines up here tend to be on the rocky side, and three friends who own the Ultras, Sports and V10s, have already dented and/or punctured them. They are feathery though, and respond NOW when sprinting or accelerating to pick up a ride. The heavier XT adds a margin of stability on a wave, but also translates to a somewhat sluggish feeling overall.
I’d try to find a Huki S1-R for comparison as well. I haven’t paddled this one yet, but those I know who own them rave about them. Cheers.
Now I’ve seen it all…
– Last Updated: Jun-30-07 7:53 PM EST –
...a kayaking club just for Certified Public Accountants.
Nice review! You might consider copying and pasting it and submitting it to Paddling.net Reviews. Very helpful for those looking for that boat, Cindi.
Dave and you have quite the paddling resumes for instruction and tripping. Mine would read something like, "Paddled the I and M canal and arms felt like half-cooked spaghetti after five hours. Paddled the Illinois River and got hit in the face with a jumping Carp and capsized in the stinkwater. Teaching: taught my son how to do the forward stroke, only to later find I was doing it wrong myself." That sort of thing.
:-)
Nice boat
Congrats!
Nice website too.
I must apologize for calling you “Janet” at the bay swim. “Cyndi” isn’t so hard to remember. I see you are into going fast (me too.) You need to try a wing paddle with that boat. I just bummed one off a guy I met a few weeks ago and I’m hopelessly hooked. If you don’t have access to one, you can borrow mine (his).
Tim (fellow CPA’r)
Nemo Review
I’ve been meaning to get the Nemo review up on the Pnet website. Just hadn’t found the time yet but I posted it just now so it should be up in a day or two.
Happy paddling all,
Cyndi
Yes Grayson was Paddling
Grayson was paddling the KayakPro Nemo when it beat all the touring and unlimited class boats. He is definitely a skilled paddler and capable of speeds beyond the average racer.
Still I think the Nemo is nearly the ideal kayak for the USCA 18 ft class for paddlers under 175lbs or so. The Marlin would be the same for paddlers over 175.
I also think that given the flat water, no wind conditions on the day of the Wickford race, a boat like the Nemo was not at much of a disadvantage to the surfskis. People often give way too much credit to length. However, when in flat water with no surfing opportunities, a boat like a K1 would be faster because of its minimal wetted surface. The Nemo is closer to a K1 with its wetted surface compared to a surfski.
Barton beat all the touring and unlimited boats in his Endurance 18 during one day of the Bogey n Bacall a few years back. If I recall it was a very very rough day an the course was shortened into a windward leeward course so chase boats could assist all the capsizers. It was a smart move for him to paddle that day in a more stable boat instead of the ski he raced in the day before.
Barton also once did the same thing at the Blackburn Challenge. Great praise was given to Barton and his Epic Endurance 18 at the time.
Grayson has now done the same thing, yet there has been little to no praise and perhaps some contraversy about it. Given that the Kayak Centre, an Epic dealer, was the sponsor of the Wickford race, I am not terribly surprised that little was made of Graysons paddle in a very well designed boat.
No matter who is doing the paddling, I think the new Nemo and Marlin are Epic X boat killers. KayakPro got it right with these two models. Having two models designed for that one USCA class based on paddler weight is the way I would have done it. Design Displacement is one of the most important parameters to consider when choosing a kayak. The Nemo and Marlin provide two weight options both with gas pedal steering, a racing seat, cutaway foredecks, and a normal rudder. These boats are firing on all cylinders.
I do not have any ties to KayakPro so have nothing to gain for praising the boats. I just know a good design when I see one. If you care about meeting the USCA specs then the Nemo and Marlin are the new benchmarks, period.
Nemo
– Last Updated: Jul-03-07 11:36 PM EST –
I guess I messed up ,I had a Nemo I could have bought a few months ago for $1800 it was full carbon
I was afraid of something I have not paddle or did not know much about.
Oh well deals come and go but I sure wanted to try
it.
I did buy a Ocean X and it is longer and narrow but I was surprised of how stable it was to be so narrow.
CD Nomad?
i know this is an old design now, but how do you think this boat would fare with these fast new boats?
Not in the same,
league. In reality waterline is not that much longer than the newer designs(pointy tip), wetted surface area is much more, paddle entry is not as efficient or close in and they are heavier.
HEX
Nemo vs Marlin
Are the hulls actually different - or is is a lower deck/cockpit fit thing?
If the former - no question which would be for me. If the latter - I’d want to check the fit of both.
I have the lines for the Marlin
Greyak,
I have the lines for the Marlin, but not the Nemo. Email me on the side if you are interested in seeing the lines. The hull is shaped very much like my USCA Champion winning design that I collaborated with John Winters on. I pushed the widest point (10% BOA) behind the cockpit further than KayakPro and also favored a more rounded huill profile compared to KayakPros slight V, but the general dimensions are idnetical. Thay have to be.
All USCA kayaks will eventually look just like the Nemo, Marlin and my design. The USCA specs do not allow any leeway from this basic shape. The only thing a designer can do is tweak volume somewhat to suit the weight of the paddler and the conditions.
The Nemo, Marlin, my design, the Epic X boats are all very fast, low drag boats. They are significantly faster than boats like the QCC700, the Seda Glider, CD Extreme, Greenlander Pro and other popular fast kayaks that the USCA specs erroneously place in a faster 20 ft class. I have been rallying against the USCA specs for some 7 years now because it was clear we would end up right where we are today: Many good popular fast sea kayaks have been made obsolete; Meanwhile one basic clone of a kayak is all one can buy if they want to be competitive in a USCA spec event.
Epic may have enjoyed a temporary windfall by the USCA specs, but now there is another player, KayakPro. The Epics are built in China and I think the KayakPros are built in Eastern Europe somewhere. So the popular sea kayaks by US manaufacturers have been made obsolete and the only two real players in this small USCA sea kayak racing niche will be battling for market share with low cost offshore production. It seems ironic that the USCA has hurt the U.S. manufacturers while providing an advantage to overseas companies.
I expect the average sea kayaker will be much less inclined to try racing now as well. The exclusionary policies of the USCA will continue to discourage racing by “sea kayakers.” Its very sad because sea kayaking had a chance to have a racing boom much like running did in the 80’s. There could have been fundraisers and fun races all over the country. But, the USCA’s class specs have taken the common paddler right out of the sport in favor of very specialized equipment and very specialized type of paddler.
Thanks - email sent
Agree 100% on your spec issues.
What would “racing” sea kayaks look like without the spec? Where to draw the line(s)…
china vs. china
Pretty sure KayakPro’s are Chinese made as well…same factory as P&H I believe
…they would look like surfskis 