Degree of difficulty
In the example you cite, there would probably be a local (State Marine Patrol) or national (Coast Guard) organization patrolling that body of water, with the express purpose of assisting any boaters in need. Pulling someone and their canoe out of the water would be routine and the cost would be neglible, since the rescue organization is there on patrol whether they’re needed or not. There would be little point in charging for the rescue, though fines for failure to have required equipment (PFD) would be in order if they’re applicable.
This is a far cry from a backcountry or offshore rescue in an unpatrolled area, where resources must be mobilized and the costs are 100% due to and specific to the rescue. In such cases, charging for the rescue to at least help to defray the cost is warranted.
This paradigm has two benefits. It increases the safety of the casual paddler without deterring participation, while reinforcing the need for caution and personal responsibility in remote locations. People who venture into remote areas SHOULD understand their responsibility for their own safety. If they don’t it’s THEIR fault. It’s the outdoor equivalent to the legal axiom “Ignorance of the law is no excuse.”
My other posts cover much of it.
Touching the Void
Anyone catch this documentary on PBS last nite? If not, look for it if it airs again - it was a fascinating documentary of 2 mountain climbers who ran into serious trouble in the Peruvian Andes. (I mean Serious Trouble - as in: do I cut the rope that my buddy is dangling from?)
These guys were ill-prepared to begin with - severe dehydration due to not having enough fuel to boil water, no radio contact, you name it. Compound this with a broken leg and a fall into a steep crevasse, and it makes for a truly amazing story of self-rescue.
Ahh…
“Ill prepared…”
They ran out of gas on like the 4th day. They had anticipated being done already on the route. Problem was that they were tackling a route none has ever completed. No roadmaps or real schedules but what they can only project.
A radio? Are you serious? They were in the Andes. Who were they supposed to call? The point was they both knew when the poop hit the fan, they were on their own and likely not going to make it out.
My take on the whole thing is that each were ready to take full responsibility for what might happen and what actually transpired.
This is different from the folks who walk into the woods with no knowledge, no preparation, no gear, no food and no brains. What they have is a cell phone and speed dial. 
sing
These guys are brutally self honest
These guys offer us a very very rare opportunity to look into the real reasons we do these things and what the real consequences are for them and for others. If you are not ready for it, don't go there because they are brutally honest, little or NO rationalization or skating over things, as you say sing.
He has gone on to write books less about himself and more about his views on the dark side of what really happens out there, "Dark Shadows Falling" is one such work. Very Brutal Look.
As you say sing, when you are ready for a teacher one appears, Joe Simpson is one of my teachers. I just saw the movie version and after all these years after reading the book and learning from him, I was totatlly surprised by watching it. I could barely get through it. I actually found myself crying at the end, not exactly like me, but I have grown to care about the man and his efforts to reveal to himself and us something authentic.
It is similar to why I found "Southern Exposure" so moving and helpful, Chris Duff is honest and revealing. He even admits, as do few others what a burden he places on family and friends with his exploits, and how uncaring he could be at times. Not an easy read for those not wanting to go into those waters as well.
What’s the difference?
If someone doesn’t call for a rescue and someone does on their behalf, it’s still the same thing. If they accept the rescue (because they need it), they should have to pay for it if the situation warrants. If they wave off the rescue (false alarm), no harm, no foul. Obviously, you can’t charge the person who called, since they were well intentioned and you don’t want to discourage people from reporting mishaps. You can’t charge the reported “victim”, since they didn’t need a rescue or call for it. It seems pretty straightforward to me.
The Coast Guard, police, fire departments, EMS and similar agencies respond to quite a few false alarms and it’s just part of the job. When we spoke with the CG at length on kayaking issues, this was their second highest concern behind safety. Actually, it’s an integral part of safety, since false alarms may tie up resources that are needed for real rescues.
Well said, Sing
You’re right on the money.
Yes, ill-prepared
I agree with you Sing that they took full responsibility for their actions, not blaming anyone else, and not expecting anyone else to come rescue them. They got out of there on sheer wits and instinct alone - it was an amazing story, and their courage was remarkable.
However, I still maintain that they were ill-prepared. ESPECIALLY since it was an uncharted, first ascent, they should have had MORE fuel than they would have expected to need.
Okay…DIfferent Perspectives
The catastrophe came from a fall and a broken leg. The running out of water was not great but without the accident they would have still made it out within a day or two. In fact, they made it out after all was said and done, without water, especially Joe who had a broken leg and got out through sheer determination, physical skills and stamina and, yes, knowledge too.
sing
Prep was deliberate, they paid for it
I have listened to Joe recount why the amounts of fuel, and other decisions. Brutal reasons he has given, grandiose ambition, go light go fast get back. More equipment, more weight, slower ascent. Well prepared for a lightning ascent. Ill prepared for anything whatsoever to go wrong. The margin for error even slight was very close to zip. Their hubris is well noted. Poor reconnaissance, no accurate plan to get down, no prior experience in those conditions. No testing of the route and coming back down. They nearly both lost their lives, their choice and they admit it.
I agree, their method is not a model to me for climbing. Joe does not agree with what he did then, he views it as irresponsible, driven by ambition, and makes no excuse.
Messner’s methods are in stark contrast. He has made manny duo and solo climbs of the 8000 ers and lived. Not perfect but his motto prepare for the descent first, research it, train for it, use careful decision making, give up better to live, don’t conquer
respect the mountain, etc, all giving him more of margin. This is my idea of a better direction. Still in that world, it is anything goes.
a link to AW
which provides some reasoned perspectives from SAR professionals, not yet heard in this discussion http://www.americanwhitewater.org/archive/article/973/
Good to see another view
Having been involved in SAR nice to see this one service’s ideas. This like any view does not necessarily represent all places, nevertheless, it good to see that there is common ground about the need but different ideas about the solutions to accomplish it.
That is one of good things that happen in this forum, gets abit narly at times, but good for me to expose myself to other’s views, expand my knowledge, etc.
The folks on that site expose some powerful concern about how people are becoming dependent on the idea of being rescued and it is quite complicated to address.
Thanks for posting it!
Geek squad to the rescue
On a far less serious note
http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/internet/11/23/geek.squads.ap/index.html
Good Link.
I enjoyed reading that. More to think about.
sing
NO counter suits in NH
not that I have seen.
Got to disagree about everest climbers
Many of the clients were in no way techincla climbers, many had little expereince over 8000 meters. They had money and were in good shape, most of these clients would never have been accepted on a climbing expedition, they lacked the technicla skills and high altitude experience.
IN the old days you served support on several expedidions before you made a summit team. Only 25 % or a team summitted, at best. You earned the right so summit. Now folks (in good shape)try to buy their way to the top.
The good climbers died because the bad ones slowed them up, and because they were attached to bad climbers by the client guide relationship.
Scott B.s point about paying causing delay in calls is valid but does not go to elitism.
Read Boukrev’s accounts about folks showing up wiht brand new boots, folks who could not put on crampons etc etc. Skilled for a sidewalk yes, skilled for a technicla 8000 meter peak, not really.
How many cases so far…
…that have actually resulted in large dolar aamounts - that were acutally collected?
Political law, not practical.
Good read
Key point as it relates to the pro fee argumenta presented in this thread “Debate driven by prejudice of risk rather than reality”
The liability section that follows that, and the disastrous consequences to the rescue agencies outlined there, is more than reason enough to vehemently oppose fees.
May or may not be necessarily so
Greyak,
Whenever people read an article that agrees with their own view, they tend to scrutinize it less than one they oppose. Having done some SAR I am not opposed to your conclusions and I take seriously the points raised and am now curious to look into this further. That said, those points may or may not be legally accurate, and all organizations become self justifying and perpetuating regardless of how many good folks are in them. What is said there is not necessarily objective, accurate, nor representative of most or all SARs. What I see is that its worth is to show us this is one heck of a complex issue. You can feel settled to take a position that is cool. For me, I am just going to suspend judgment and look into it a bit more before taking such a strong stand.
I agree with Greyak
The unprepared paddlers would have no knowledge of rescue fees. As an example, educated paddlers know when forced to use a busy launch area that you follow the marine rules of traffic. I cannot tell you how many times I have seen inexperienced paddlers just cutting across lanes of boat traffic without consideration and with a feeling of omnipotence. Fees for rescue sounds plausible but would not work in my opinion.