"Fast" Royalex Tandem Canoe.....?????

hate to be “that guy”

– Last Updated: Jun-13-12 1:23 PM EST –

who's always trumpetting his own boat. But, I guess I'm the only one on pnet who has an Esquif Avalon. I think the Avalon fits the bill as a "fast" Royalex canoe. Actually its Royalite. Anyway, its theoretically a flat water canoe, but coming from Esquif, definitely has some whitewater capability in its DNA. It has 2 inches of rocker and a couple more inches of freeboard than other canoes in its class. I find it very maneuverable, although I have not paddled it in whitewater yet. I don't think its really intended for Cl III whitewater. But with a sprayskirt and some skills and lining/portaging the REALLY rough parts, it *might* work. It is a 16 footer, and it looks like you're looking for a 17 footer, so it might not be what you're after. But I thought I'd chime in anyway.

Esquif does have some 17 foot tripping models - a Prospector and the Canyon. The Canyon is highly rated as a whitewater tripper, but might not have the flat water speed you're looking for. Another option might be the 20 foot Miramichi, which I think gains some flat water speed due to its length. OT Tripper XL should be about the same, I would think.

The other big river tripper that comes to mind is the Mad River Expedition, which I think is the same as the *Dagger* Expedition co-designed by Cliff Jacobsen to combine whitewater capability and respectable flat water speed.

I like my Penobscot 16 quite a bit, but it goes around Class III, not through it. Tandem, the bow is just not dry/tall enough for larger waves.

I’m wrong
The Dagger Venture was the one that one CJ helped design.

So it is a troll. He knows but he wants
us to talk about it.

No, no boats will go through real
rapids competently and go fast. If you have hung around with ww downriver racers like I have, you know that downriver boats are a long way from competent. They are just barely able to get through the maelstrom without getting eaten, controlled by their skilled paddlers.

If you want to ask about this stuff, don’t troll. You have more boats than me, so your mind must be clouded worse than mine.

Maybe check out the “this is canoeing”
Mountain River segment. Some of it is on youtube I think. Looks like 17 or 18 foot Prospectors with full covers. Black Feather Outfitters could verify.

In that context, "White water capability

– Last Updated: Jun-13-12 7:20 PM EST –

means you can load it and paddle down class 2++ rapids with enough maneuverability to escape disaster. It does not mean you can run Chattooga 4 tandem and loaded, and carry out the sequential moves needed to get through.

That's what we're trying to get straight here. An example. The Wenonah Rendezvous, designed and marketed for whitewater. I've tried one, and while it can go straight down the Nantahala, most of the moves I carry out in my ww boat I simply cannot do in the Rendezvous. It is a fast ww downriver cruiser, but that is NOT what us ww people would call "white water capability." If you want that, you have to sacrifice a lot of speed.

Oh, I meant to say that Esquif has a fascinating lineup, and rarely markets a "dud." They are unusually clear about their boat descriptions and don't recommend any boat for things unsuitable. The Avalon has always been known as a sweet boat.

Good friend of mine who is a brutal
machine in cruising class downriver racing, owned a Tripper and twice placed third on the Nantahala. Then he got the use of a 16 foot Penobscot and twice placed first.

But when he competed and won in the first (only?) middle Ocoee open boat downriver, he passed up both the Penobscot and the Tripper. He won in a Blue Hole OCA. He said it just ran drier than the Tripper, in spite of being a foot shorter and less rockered.

thanks g2d
For questioning everything except the placement of the post.

I have a Sundowner 17. It’s fine in the flats, but has nearly zero rocker. I use it as a paddling machine for just enjoying being on the water. That’s all i can add.

Just get a classic alumacraft. Just dont carry it.

Ryan L.

You want to explain that?
I’ve taken my licks on this forum. And on re-reading Bowler’s original post, I’m still not sure what he is driving at.

I Can’t Think of Anything That Would…

– Last Updated: Jun-14-12 12:31 AM EST –

....fit the bill better than an Esquif Mistral. Faster than royalex boats but will handle whitewater and has 3.5" rocker. Twintex lighter than royalex too and will hold up to abuse from what I've seen with mine. I've bashed rocks and scraped down shallow rivers.

Consider your partner
As this thread goes on, everyone is focusing pretty much on the boat performance parts of your question.

Make sure you include paddler capability and mental comfort in your decision, too. You say your wife isn’t super comfortable with whitewater. When I have a bow partner who is scared/tentative, my first goal is to make sure they have a good time, even if that means compromising on “my” fun.

For tripping boats, the faster and more efficient a boat is in flatwater, the more skill and aggressiveness will be required from both paddlers in whitewater.

BTW, I don’t think you mentioned any specific rivers in your question, just abstract classifications. What runs are you looking at?