So, I could reasearch boats for another month, make sure of what I want, then, theoretically, find a glass T170 with KS hatches. Notice how I ignored the "may be a looonnnngggg wiat" and focused on the "out since AUG." :-).
Come on, most of the first time boat buyers aren't looking in December, and CF is cranking them out to fill the supply chain for spring, right? There should be some out there somewhere ;-). I just have to find them.
I now wonder if that $2600 kev boat has KS hatches.
Are the resins even compatible? I’ve heard about boats that have both glass cloth and kevlar cloth. I started to think maybe most of them are that way. But then I was told that the resin used for glass is different than for kevlar and that they aren’t compatible together. So now I’m wondering how a glass and kev boat is even done. Maybe the term “compatible” is a relative term, as in “not the best adhesion.”
I'd buy the kevlar for your usage. Plus you save weight.
In my experience with kevlar boats: I've never experienced the gel coat cracks in my kevlar boat (Bell Magic canoe) and I'm not nice on it. I've run it down light whitewater and have put many many days of tripping on it.
Suburban myth. MANY whitewater racing boats are made with S-glass outside, Kevlar inside, and EITHER vinylester or epoxy resin. I have both. They resist delamination very well.
It is true that the builder may select glass cloth with a different coating for certain resins. Kevlar cloth is not coated.
You can go to johnrsweet.com and pick up a lot of technical data on these things.
Another suburban myth. Kevlar in resin will NOT wick water. WW boats cut deep into the Kevlar (not easy to do when it means cutting through two layers of glass) do not wick, do not soften, and do not gain weight.
I do not agree with making ALL Kevlar boats, because they are not as stiff as boats with glass or carbon outside, and Kevlar boats fuzz. But some serious, successful builders (Kruger, Mad River) have marketed all Kevlar boats with good results.
Can you say with certainty that the Kevlar kayak you are looking at is ALL Kevlar, inside and out? This is relatively uncommon.
Just curious. One always tries to get the DETAILS on a layup.
For non-whitewater, non- rocky coast surfing, all glass is wonderful. Under violent pounding, it breaks in ways that make repair more inconvenient. A couple of layers of Kevlar inside tend to confine most breakage to the outer (glass) layers, which are then easily repaired.
On the flexibility issue, I do have a 1982 Noah kayak, probably Kevlar and polyester with vinylester resin, and NO glass. It fuzzes outside, and would be excessively flexible except for 3" front and rear walls and a foam bulkhead seat. It will bend, but is almost untearable. I had some pieces of the deck I cut out when installing a keyhole cockpit, and I could bend them and crease them without any breakage or delamination.
Another reason to ask for layup details. If an all-glass boat gets beaten a lot, or worn inside by gear shifting and by your feet during entry/exit, little tiny glass fibers are going to get loose inside. If you don’t rinse the boat regularly and dump it out, you can get the FG itchies.
Just one or two Kevlar or CAP (polyester) layers inside avoid this problem entirely.
My glass canoes came painted inside to delay fiber shedding and to slow UV damage. My only all-glass decked boat did shed fibers a bit, which I slowed by painting on a thin layer of epoxy resin over the wear areas. Those rare boats that are carbon inside (I have one) do not cause itchies because they wear nice and smooth.
Thanks. Dealer said all kevlar. Thanks for the excellent info g2d, and for the sweet webpage. I appreciate knowing the benefits of glass outer, kevlar inner.
Sales rep at Alder Creek told me the kevlar Tempest is all kevlar. I asked specifically if it was both glass and kevlar, and he said all kevlar. Flatpick can certainly say for sure. Steve, can you verify?
go for the one with KS hatches you really won’t appreciate the Kevlar boat if you find the hatchs aren’t secure.
The kevlar option is partially a consequence of marketing and not necessarily THE better layup for light weight or strength. It’s like saying you HAVE to have a particular brand of flour or butter for making a cake and leaving the type of cake or cook out of the picture.
Sure it’s lighter, but it’s not a racing boat.
If you REALLY want a light kayak then seek out light kayaks.
Sure kevlar stays together on impacts and won’t fracture into pieces but any damage that will do that to a glass boat will still require repairs on your kevlar boat and probably send you to the hospital.
It basically gets down to “I have an extra $500 and want to carry five less pounds”.
My $.02 is that the original WS hatches aren’t an improvement in the challenging technology of hatch closure. They tried to re-invent the kayak hatch for various reasons and they didn’t make a better kayak hatch.
Thanks for the discussion everyone. I feel like this was a nice high level discussion of the options. Definitely useful for me. Hopefully adds some value to the archive, too.
I'm gonna pass on the kevlar Tempest. The company is sacobound in NH, www.sacobound.com , incase anyone else wants the boat. Talk to Bob. He may take less for it too. I didn't ask.
I called Alder Creek, which is where I bought my T180 in July, and told them I've lost a lot of weight and looking to downsize to 170, and heard they are sometimes kind to customers in situations where they need to change boats soon after a sale. They have a new 2006 fiberglass lime on white T170 that they will swap for my T180, with nominal charge, $100-200, to compensate for scratches on my T180. I told them my only apprehension is if the hatches leak a lot more on the 170 than on my current 180. I was pretty lucky with the 180, just water droplets most of the time, even after a couple hours of rolling and cowboy rescues. They indicated they'll work with me. They're looking to keep me as a valued customer. I'm pretty thrilled with the attitude there. I'm gonna bring my T180 up tomorrow.
Also called George at kayak academy. They have a 2007 fiberglass orange on white T170 that just came in. Not giving any discount of course, but it's available. Reason I'm not taking this options is I'd still have to sell my T180 and certainly take more of a loss than AC’s gift-trade, and not sure I'll stay in the T170 more than a year. Maybe 170 for life. Maybe not.
Also confirmed there are some Aquanauts around if I had decided to do nothing for a few more months and ended up liking the 'naut. I already know everything else I'm interested in for the future is in stock at AC. And AC will have 'nauts too around March.
So options are out there. For a couple hundred though, the 170 is perfect for me for today. Keep slimmin down, get some more experience, and enjoy the journey again trying boats at demo days and WCSKS next summer and fall.
Further thoughts on my decision are welcomed. Thanks again for sharing your thoughts so far.
I traded for the 2006 fiberglass T170 Posting this just cuz sometimes people like to know how it ended. I did trade my 6 month old 2006 glass lime on white T180 + $200 for a new 2006 glass lime on white TI70. Most people don’t even realize I switched.
The hatches did leak of course, worse than my T180 too. T180 would just get water droplets, occasionally a quarter cup of water. The T170 was getting a half cup of water.
AC pulled the covers from my T180 and mailed them to me. I put them on the T170 and it helped. About a quarter cup of water after lots of rolls and side sculling now. I can handle that.
