Interesting take…
I was leaning towards liking the karma more in terms of what I read in that article with out having considered the speed wall of the two just from a capacity standpoint. I got all of my survival/camping skills from the military, so I have not graduated to spoiling my self with “luxury” camping yet ha ha. I don’t see my self out for more than a week initially any ways, so with my minimalist style it should provide more than enough storage for my immediate needs.
Quickly learning that I greatly underestimated the WW rating system, so I will not even be considering anything over a 2 in the near future. Seems like I am starting to narrow down a good training boat for what I’m looking to do.
Thanks,
I will look into these kayaks…
Overwhelming amount of factors that go into the decision so I really appreciate the personal experiences for each. The more I read here, the less I feel like I know. Excited to buy my first boat and start building some of my own experience. Thanks for the input guys.
Canoe?
Considering your intended uses I’m curious why you’re set on a kayak rather than a canoe.
Not saying a kayak might not be the best choice for you but don’t write off canoes. Many people, me included when I started, think all canoes handle like a 80lb Grumman. Took me a few years of kayaking to have my eyes opened.
Not only can they carry more gear but it’s a lot easier to access it as well, especially when you’re on the water. Generally easier to get in and out of, especially at tricky landings, and much easier to portage.
Since you’re just starting I’d recommend hunting around the used market. You should be able to find something decent, either canoe or kayak, for $500. That will get you on the water where you can start learning and find out what you do and don’t like. Don’t worry about getting the perfect hull. The chances of you picking out the perfect boat at this stage in the game are slim and none. Not only that but your perfect boat will be constantly evolving, which is why so many of us have/had so many different boats. Just get something and get on the water. Since you’re buying used you can most likely resell it for the same price if you decide it’s not the boat for you.
Alan
Haven’t ruled out a canoe…
I am probably more biased towards a kayak for the reason that you stated, as well as the fact that I plan on being solo (in terms of no one else in my boat, not with out a paddling buddy) most of the time.
Last bit was probably the best advice yet, its been said here already, and it was def my initial mindset, but sometimes a guy just needs a little affirmation that your not going to end up with your first boat being your last boat.
Thanks,
solo
I am probably more biased towards a kayak for the reason that you stated, as well as the fact that I plan on being solo (in terms of no one else in my boat, not with out a paddling buddy) most of the time.
There’s a whole world of solo canoes for every type of paddling.
The kayaks in the article you linked above don’t look like they’d fit the bill to me in terms of cargo storage if regular overnight trips are part of your plan. Sounds like the paddlers in the article were using an outfitter that took care of food and inflatable couches for them, meaning they probably weren’t carrying much of anything in their boats.
But maybe that’s the type of trip you’re looking at doing. I know there are a lot of people who take whitewater trips in little kayaks with a raft that comes along to tote the gear. But if you’re planning to go unsupported I think you’ll need more room.
Where do you live and what rivers do you plan to paddle? Is whitewater a serious interest or was the ability to run some larger stuff only because it comes with the turf when tripping on rivers?
Alan
Alan
WW
Quickly learning that I greatly underestimated the WW rating system, so I will not even be considering anything over a 2 in the near future. Seems like I am starting to narrow down a good training boat for what I’m looking to do.
I think CII is a good call. Standing next to a real CIII or CIV is pretty intimidating, especially in a wilderness situation. I try to run CII when I can but have portaged plenty of them too.
Limiting yourself to CII opens a lot of options.
Alan
Comes with the turf…
I may have an interest in WW down the road once i get a taste for it and experience, but by then I would probably pursue a dedicated craft.
Right now my primary objective would be regular over-nighters (wknds), with extended trips when the opportunity presented itself. I live in the mid-west but intend to travel extensively for said trips not to say that it wont end up on the fox river or back down to the current where my brother lives.
Hit the nail on the head though, I would hate to avoid a river trip because my boat couldn’t handle the 2 or 3 that it involved. Hopefully by now it goes unsaid that i understand, regardless of the boat skill is the trump card.
Sound advice…
Makes a lot of sense, hadn’t looked at it from that perspective.
Finally…
seems like we are on the same page with what I am asking and you are saying, I can be stubborn but I can appreciate stern advice as long as its well intentioned and that last bit seems like advice I can and will follow!
A wrinkle…
now that I have gotten all of this good advice, hopefully I don’t nullify all of it.
I am a big dude, 6’2" 230+/- depending on whats for lunch.
What do i need to rule out if any of the suggestions you all have made?
Lots of options
I think you have lots of options and shouldn’t worry so much about the whitewater aspect of it. There are lots of rivers in the midwest and southern Canada that make for fantastic trips but don’t contain much whitewater. If your goal is to run CII and easier and portage the more difficult stuff a lot of boats can handle that and you won’t find yourself portaging all that often in this part of the country.
Since I’m a canoe guy I think good options for used boats would be: Wenonah Vagabond, Wenonah Wilderness, Swift Osprey, Bell Merlin II, Bell Wildfire, Bell Yellowstone solo. Lots of others out there that would work too but those were the ones that jumped to mind. The Wildfire and Yellowstone are generally paddled from a kneeling position. Although any boat can be paddled sitting or kneeling the kneeling seats are usually higher and can be pretty tippy when sitting. So either work on your balance or lower the seat, which is more comfortable for sitting but makes kneeling harder.
BTW, don’t sweat the portages. They intimidated me for a long time and I avoided trips that contained more than one or two short ones. When I broke down and finally did a trip that involved multiple portages every day I found they weren’t bad after all. Most of them are pretty easy and it’s a nice change of pace. I actually look forward to getting out and stretching my legs. Some of them do really suck but even those are rewarding in a sadistic sort of way.
Where are you in the midwest? Let us know and you might find someone nearby who would gladly let you try out some boats. I’m in NW Iowa and have plenty you’d be welcome to paddle.
Alan
Northern IL…
And I would love to get out on the water with some experienced guys this season, even if it meant a little road trip and renting some gear before I am fully set up.
I will def look into some of those canoes, and I am not put off by a portage, I would look at it as adding to the experience. More about having the option for me!
Reading all this advice though, I feel less pressure to buy the perfect boat on my first try and a lot better about the prospect of a starter boat.
The perfect boat is like the perfect
house or woman or man… Non existent. When you think you have found it, your interests evolve.
Relax and enjoy the journey…
Which is less stressful… used …secondhand stuff. Get the very best paddle you can afford though!
no worries there
Most of the kayaks have upscaled models for bigger folks. Your shoe size is just as important as your waist size in many kayaks.
Two more to consider.
If you are getting your first boat and you do not have a bomb proof roll then I do not think you should be running more than class 2 and for a lot of trips like this a Dagger Alchemy L would be a very good fit for you, and it will let you surf big waves and go fast on flat water.
If you think that you will quickly be able to adapt to rolling up in spite of a rock or two banging your helmet while upside down, then ad the Liquid Logic Stinger XP to your list that has the Jackson Karma RG.
Many white water paddlers around here start first in the winter in the pool and learn to roll. Many trips require a good roll before you go on the river. So one way to start is to go to the local pool session and see who will rent you a boat to learn to roll over the winter. Or buy some old white water boat in craigslist and learn to roll this winter. For what you want to do the skills matter a lot more than the boat.
Good info…
Thanks, I had actually stumbled across that boat on my research and had it saved as an option, seems to be more readily available on the used market as well.
I already have some classes lined up this year to learn some of those skills.
What waters? Just rivers?
If you’re only going on rivers with some rapids (I saw you adjusted your expectations down), not on big open waters (big lakes, ocean) and want to take a camping load that’s big enough for a couple of weeks, a solo (river) tripping canoe does indeed come to mind.
It takes more gear, is easier to load and unload, and easier to get into and out of than a sit-in kayak. Even if you don’t have long portages on most rivers, you may have to walk your boat through the shallows every few miles, and around rapids, dams, or low-water bridges, requiring you to take your gear out and put it back in.
I know nothing about kayaks, but the Pyranha Fusion Deluxe sit-on-top kayak is the SOT version of the Fusion, and would provide some of the same advantages as a canoe. But SOTs are wet. Do you live in a warm climate? Storage space looks limited. At your weight plus camping gear, I think you need a longer boat.
Ratings
In the Klutz juggling books, they say something along the lines of, on a scale of 1-10, juggling 3 objects is a 2. Juggling 4 objects is a 7. Juggling 5 objects is a 35. WW ratings are something like this in that the difference between class III and class IV is huge, and class V requires even more technical skill and concentration.
I am no laughing now and am saying that finding a boat that is challenging (or which feels a little too tippy) is a good way to go. You may want to save money initially by finding a decent craft on the used market or by renting hulls until you find what you want.
Good luck and feel much better about this conversation based upon what you’ve written after that initial post.
Rick
No way, no how…
…would I run a class 3 in a loaded-for-3-weeks sea kayak, solo or otherwise. A loaded boat is a heavy boat, and one that could easily pin you. People have died in small coastal surf by rolling in loaded boats (happened this past summer on the WA coast), and it would’t be a stretch to compare that to a class 3 technical section.
With that being said, if you’re looking for a solid sea kayak that is decent as an exercise boat and fantastic as a tour boat, I can recommend the Arctic Tern 17. Of course, you have to build it, but that’s the fun part, and what you get for your effort is a light, strong, versatile boat for a relatively low cash outlay. Oh, and it’ll turn heads every time you have it out.