Not trying to sound sarcastic…
but I was wondering exactly how do people manage to drown even with a PFD on? I’ve heard people in this forum state that in the winter, wearing just a PFD just makes it easier for people to find your body (death due to hypothermia), but what exactly are the factors that would cause one to drown in spite of having a lifejacket? The only thing I could think of was a really strong undercurrent… anything else?
Thanks in advance.
Unconsciousness
I thought I read that Type III PFDs (most common type) are not designed to keep a person face-up in the water, merely to float their body.
If this is wrong, someone please chime in.
How to drown in a pfd…
– Last Updated: Apr-04-10 8:40 PM EST –
JDizz,
Yes, you can drown in a pfd.
You are more likely to drown while wearing a pfd, "IF" you are a "non" swimmer.
If you "were" able to swim, you might be able to avoid some of the nasty spots you don't want to go with, or without a pfd.
Examples: Being swept into a strainer; downed trees in the river, or hanging over & into the river. Most of these can be avoided, even if you are in the water; if you have some swimming skills, and are able to swim aggressively to a safe area.
Being swept into an area of the river where there is a hydraulic. Some places in the area where I live have low water bridges; some of them have hydraulics on the downstream side. Some of them have large culverts running underneath the low water bridge; those culverts are "often" jammed at some point with fencing, tree limbs, fence posts, trash cans, fishing line & other obstructions.
Not a fun spot to get swept into due to the lack of ability to aggressively swim to a safe area, before you get swept into the hydraulic, or the culvert.
Foot entrapment can sometimes lead to a drowning whether you have a pfd or not. Often the current will be too fast for you to keep your head above water when your body is swept downstream(your foot stays entrapped), even wearing a pfd.
One of the first things a lot of beginners/non swimmers do when they capsize in fast moving water is to stand up; this is an ideal situation for a foot entrapment. Will your non swimming friends be able to get to where you are, and stabilize you long enough to get whatever is entrapped free?
Some rivers, have boulders that have undercuts, and potholes. A pfd is no gurantee of safe passage or easy exit if you get swept under an undercut boulder, or into a pothole in a boulder garden. With swimming skills, you may be to avoid these hazards by swimming aggressively to an area of safey before you encounter those hazards.
Most pfd that paddlers wear are "not" designed to keep your face out of the water if you get knocked out, or stunned.
Pfds are no gurantee that you will not be affected by hypothermia, and possibly drown. Swimming skills and a pfd might have gotten you out of the water & to shore "before" hypothermia occurred.
You are a swimmer, and are wearing a pfd. You capsize your canoe/kayak. A foot gets entangled in some gear, rope, whatever. The pfd will not guarantee that you will not be tacoed between the boat & a rock, tree, or root wad. A pfd will not guarantee you will not be swept over a water fall while attached to the kayak/canoe. Many waterfalls have hydraulics & strainers at the bottom.Think swimming skills might be handy if you can get loose from your boat? Is your pfd wearing, "non" swimming paddling partner going to swim out to where you are & assist you in getting free before you drown?
A pfd is no gurantee that you will not be drowned by someone you attempt to assist, if they are extremely panicky & aggressively trying to keep their head above water(perhaps because they "don't" have on a pfd, or can't swim). If you have a pfd on, and have some swimming skills you might be able to stay away out of their reach, and assist them "after" they calm down. Or you might be able to do a reaching assist in deep water; keeping a respectable distance from the panicked non swimmer. You should be wearing a pfd to do this; and if you are going into deep water you should be a swimmer too.
I have seen a large Labrador Retreiver nearly drown a young child wearing a pfd, in 4 feet of water. The child could not get the dog off of her & the dog was holding her underwater by putting it's front paws on her shoulders. A parent had to pull the dog off the child.
That's just a few examples of how you can drown with a pfd on.......but have no swimming skills.
Swimming skills assist you by allowing you to get to shore & out of harm's way, "before" you get into some of the scenario's described above.
You won't drown because you always paddle on slow moving rivers, close to shore, the weather is great, and you always wear your pfd?
More drownings occur in that type of scenario/venue than occur on whitewater. That's because most beginners, most non pfd wearing paddlers, most non swimming paddlers go paddling/floating........on what they think are the "safe" rivers.
Again, those are "just a few" examples.
Very few.
BOB
Wow Thebob.com
That’s quite a list of ways to drown in spite of wearing a PFD… too many people (myself included, at times!) put too much faith in a PFD, and skimp on attention to safety details… thanks for sobering us up with that info.
in winter
The remarks about PFDs making your body easier to find in winter probably refers to the fact that in very cold water, people without appropriate immersion wear generally lose their ability to swim or get themselves back in a boat in minutes. So wearing a PFD will just float your useless body longer if you weren’t dressed for the swim. It won’t save you from the killer - cold water.
In rough water
It is very common to drown in whitewater being pinned in your boat or upside down being flushed against a strainer, bridge abutment etc. You can be recirculated in a hydraulic or keeper hole and never be able to get air that is free of water and spray to breath.
In large ocean waves you can be held down in a breaking wave longer than you can hold your breath. You can also aspirate spray that will cause your trachea to close off and your lungs to fill with fluid, so you can drown while still floating on the surface .
Solo
Kathy, I was paddling solo soon after buying a kayak. It was on one solo fishing trip the tide and wind turned on me and on reaching shore, I vowed to get professional lessons.
This is the kind of thing where if you have to ask, you’re not ready most likely. Then again, if your partners have to rescue and can’t they might as well be on Mars. Paddling is kind of solo all the time. Except when it’s not of course. Learn to swim, then never swim unless you want to. : ) also, in my case, I was not ready to be where I was alone, but I was too dumb to know it. When you are self sufficient you will know, but instruction will let you know the criteria to judge by and let you prove to yourself first hand that you have the skills and knowledge and judgment. It does not matter if others jump off a cliff, they are not you.
Good examples, but …
Thanks for all the examples of how to die even while wearing a PFD. Now I’ll never get on the water again. Just kidding (but good thing my Mom doesn’t read this). Your examples do provide plenty of food for thought. But I also want to point out that in many of the examples you gave, a swimmer with a PFD could/would be susceptible to drowning, too.
Gender can be an issue
As a woman, I appreciate all of you who said gender isn’t an issue when it comes to deciding whether to paddle alone. And I agree, when it comes to being safe boating, the issue is skill, not gender. However, being safe from crime can be a gender issue when alone, depending on where you are. For example, be aware of whether your take out location is also a party spot. Do you want to get to the end of your paddle alone and have a bunch of drunken yahoos there? At least if they’re partying at the put-in, you could just change locations. But, at the end of the day, your options are limited. Alone, in a group, male or female, you should be aware of the potential for crime. But a single female may be taking a bigger risk.
Agree with that part
I think I started this. I was talking about the whether being on the water is safe based on information from the paddler here and in an earlier thread where she seemed to say that at this point in time she had not worked on rescues. Maybe the not swimming thing was in there too - in any case it isn’t new information that basic water survival skills may need some work.
What you are talking about is more about whether access to the water is safe, since land is where you are most likely to run into unpleasant two-legged wildlife. That is, I agree, an issue that is more of a problem for women than men. But then again, the same rules apply at boat launches or in remote places in the woods as in the most urban environment. If a female is alone and crosses paths with bad actors with no one around, it can go bad very fast.
Hesitant partner?
In response to your last, Jeff, Kathy and I have emailed back and forth a couple times - discussing the possibility of paddling together, but I have not followed up.
The reason? First, I am concerned that Kathy cannot swim, and even with a PFD, that gives me great concern as a once-Red Cross certified lifeguard. I have not met her and don’t know her weight in relation to my strength if a rescue situation were to develop . . . and she has stated she has no rescue skills. She has a 14’ Manta Ray, while mine’s a 12" and those boats are heavy when considered from a rescue standpoint. Finally, I don’t know her response to water in a dunking situation - and possibly she doesn’t either.
In short, I am very impressed with Kathy’s dedication to paddling, and I would not hesitate to join her for a paddle, if she could swim and had some rescue knowledge, but at this point,I would feel more responsibility than I feel ready to take on, given her present situation. There have been some great posts on this situation, with good advice. I hope she follows it.
Meanwhile, I am in the process of taking some training to further develop my paddling skills and learn some on-water leadership skills. Maybe some day, we’ll meet in the middle and get to go paddling!
Poster asked for examples…
– Last Updated: Apr-05-10 12:54 PM EST –
JDizz asked for examples of how a person wearing a pfd could possibly drown. I gave him some, and can give him, or you more if necessary.
A person wearing a pfd, with the ability to swim, knowing how & when to swim "aggressively",who has some self rescue skills training will dramatically "decrease" the possibility they will NOT get themselves into many life threatening situations.
They typically will be less likely to panic, less likely to put themselves into dangerous situations, have more confidence in their ability to help themselves, and be more aware of how to assist fellow paddlers. They will be aware of techniques used to assist them in dealing with some problems such as strainers, hydraulics, etc. There are techniques that may assist you; if you know what they are. Having the ability to "swim aggressively" is one of those techniques.
Ask yourself this, "Do you want someone who wears a pfd, someone who can swim & who can swim aggressively when necessary; one who has some training assisting you "when you really need help"?
Or do you prefer to get assistance from a non pfd wearing, non swimmer, who has no training?
Where do you expect these people will be, and what do you expect them to be doing in an emergency situation "in the water".
They will probably be on shore watching; not in the water assisting you. Or they will be the victim in the water, hollering for help.
It is very unlikely that they will be doing things which they have no ability, skills, education, or training to do.
Newspaper reporters love drowning victims & interviewing seemingly helpless bystanders; they make good video copy for the News at 8.
I'm not talking about gender issues, or who might jump you at the takeout.
The "initial issue" was soloing; without the ability to swim, and having no self rescue skills.
BOB
Really excellent post, Bob.
Posts like yours contribute to saving lives. Thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge!
Another way to drown in a PFD…
In “Essentials of Sea Survival”(great book!), there are references to people floating upright in type 1 PFDs who slowly drowned by inhaling spray and splash in extended high-wind conditions.
^ you are right
Type III (& for that matter Type V) PFDs do not keep the swimmer’s face out of water. That requires consciousness & positive effort on the part of the swimmer.
Type I (much bulkier & not suited for paddling motion)
will keep an unconscious person’s face out of the water.
no paddling partner options?
North Carolina is a paddler’s paradise. There are meetup groups & yahoo groups which are paddling-centric. Adventure groups which include kayaking. Paddling clubs which can help her w. paddling skills as most offer skill sessions, esp. early in season.
NC Outfitters who offer classes before guided trips. She can learn, try different boats, and paddle new venues. Someday she might want to do protected ocean paddling, or lakes. A great outfitter/guide can expand her paddling horizon beyond the usual river stretch while serving as support and backup as she learns.
And of course learn to swim.
The case for not paddling solo is pretty well made. As pointed out by a few capable women paddlersin the thread, it is not a “ladies” issue, it is a skills and judgement issue.
As to either - She’s not ready, but she can get ready if she is as dedicated to paddling as it seems. It’ll be fun and open up so many more avenues to get on the water.
Floating does not equal propulsion
A PFD only keeps your body at the surface of the water. It will not get you where you need to go. For that, you must swim.
8 years ago I had to tow a paddler in the water who passively floated (wearing his PFD) as his boat blew away.He didn’t even try to swim to his boat, because he didn’t know what to do! He had been on many WW rafting trips where he and his friends relied on the current and lots of helping hands to yank someone out.
If you’ve never had to pull a swimmer behind your boat, try it on a warm day. Guaranteed it’ll make you preach swimming lessons.
The great equalizer
The crime aspect applies whether it’s kayaking or anything else.
If a place is that hinky, I won’t go.
If there are no alternatives, you might consider firearms training and a concealed-carry permit.
As one who solos often…
– Last Updated: Apr-05-10 1:16 PM EST –
I've been watching this thread with interest.
Lot's of good comments here that should cause someone to think about the risks they face.
Because of my (lack of) work schedule, most of my outdoor activities over the last 22 years have been solo. If not for that, my outdoor life would be extremely limited.
Solo adventures require a different mindset than group trips. You must practice consistently good judgment and preparation or you are setting yourself up for disaster.
Preparation, as has been discussed here, includes skills that can reasonably be expected to be put to use in the respective activity (i.e. rope handling/mountaineering, swimming/paddling, etc). There is plenty of information available these days to learn "the ropes" before advancing solo into wild adventures, so there is no excuse for learning the basics "the hard way", and especially for not even knowing for sure what the basics are.
Preparation also includes mental training and decision making that prepares you to accept the limits you will face gracefully. You must be able to identify and back away from those challenges that are unreasonable for you to face alone at your experience level.
I am a proponent of solo adventuring for those that have done "the homework" and are physically capable. Although I do like shared adventures, there is nothing like experiencing the wild on your own. I have learned to love it deeply.
However....If a person has to ask others "should I go solo..." the answer is probably no - or at least, not yet. This is one of those personal things you should be able to answer definitively (and honestly) for yourself. If you don't know the answer, the answer (IMO) is "no".
This is as simple as I can put it....Know yourself, know the challenge, then decide for yourself.
Steve…
Very well stated opinions…
Many paddlers, no matter what their skill level, benefit from making well reasoned decisions, and listening to their “inner voice”.
Some call that common sense.
BOB