Onnopaddle, JackL, I am as surprised by
the longer length paddles you describe as you are by my short length.
I purchased the first set of carbon midwing paddles for my son and myself. Our selection of length was based on information provided by Mark, initially. When I bought the second set I spoke with Greg and told him I was surprised to find the 205 length felt too long and I must be doing something wrong.
His response was that 99% of wing paddlers had excessive paddle length and he was not at all surprised regarding my choice.
I use the same length paddle for the SRS" Delphine" (sprint boat at 17.5" wide), the SRS “Dart” at 21.75" wide and the Current Design “Solstice GTS” at 22" wide.
With this length paddle my leverage is much better than when I was at 205. I use the GPS and was surprised to see how much more effective shortening the length made my stroke. It also allows for much longer distances as it takes less stress/force than longer paddles.
Tom Foti (SRS rep and competitive paddler) also uses a wing paddle that is considered subsantially short for his size. Tom told me many wing paddlers suffer arm and shoulder stress due to paddles that are too long.
If I could make a suggestion, call Cory at Current Design. He is a great guy and will verify what Barton said. He has a great deal of knowledge as he is a designer and avid paddler as well. He told me not enough people try the shorter paddle, thus never realize if it is better for them. He also told me it would be fine for the Solstice as long as I rotated properly. He was correct.
It would be OK to tell Cory that John Hall said to call him. He will remember me as the guy he gave the new Solstice GTS to.
I will be the first one to say that correct paddle length is an individual thing and many paddlers may be better off with longer paddles. I am also aware that a great many people have forgotten more than I know about this sport. However, I do know that until I tried the shorter paddle I did not realize the efficiency it created. Also, it forces one to use proper upper body rotation (Barton told me this would be the case.)
Anyway, different strokes for different folks. Whether a long or short paddle, whatever works best for you is the right thing.
Jack
short wing
Most interesting & thanks for the info. When I first started racing marathon in the mid 80's, we used wooden Struer paddles. Most from approx. 218-222. I can remember an average size paddler doing very well at a couple Natl's with a 202! At the moment, in Wichita I'm frozen, but should get water back soon & can't wait to shrink my adj. Epic mid wing (213-223) all the way down to 213, for my T-bolt.
Agree completely about longer lengths
and doing my best to explain the pros and cons to every person I end up talking too.
For a person just trying out the wing, they might feel as if they just cannot 'get on top of it' leverage wise. Alot of this might be the new technique needed, the possibly overwelming power ( one of the reasons we are developing some smaller profiles) of the new wing or incorrect or unfamiliar sizing sizing.
Going shorter will lesson some of this 'kickback' from paddle. Going super short will feel great, especially at the release part as the paddle seems to jump out and be ready for the next side..... however there is a point deminishing return. By going too short you are no longer getting the paddle any closer to the boat or a steeper entry rather you are letting your hands fall to a less than efficient ergonimic position and narrowing your powerband. The down side of this is less available power and since the wing stroke is has the blade sweeping out rather than 'back and down' like a regular paddle a bit of available paddle in the water time @ max body efficiency is lost.
Not arguing your paddle choice cause I know the short length feels great.... if it has some length adjustment to it you might try gradually working back up without submerging the blades too deep. Just for research sake.
Wonder why I do not see everyone with such length ---- paddles ?
You make a very good point regarding
there being a point of diminishing returns when it comes to shortening a paddle. It seems logical that one must find the “power band” that you referred too.
I have heard the power band described as the point where a person most efficiently applies exertion to create a reaction. If my paddle is too long I strain at the initial entry point, thus becoming less efficient. If my paddle is too short, as you say, poor form occurs, the blade is not properly immersed and efficiency is lost.
One of the most important factors I left out regarding shortening of paddle is that all the individuals I see doing this, including myself, have raised the seat higher than the norm. Also, the stroke is high forcing the blade closer to the boat, initially. It is definately designed as the most efficient power stroke attainable.
You mentioned wondering why others do not use shorter paddles. Many guys in Gainsville that were over 6’were using 212’s and 215’s. I rarely saw a paddler, other than those who were leisure touring, who had a paddle length that would be considered conventional.
The length I use (195) is short for a person my height, but seems right for my dimensions. My arms are short as compared to my body. My son is 5’ 9" and uses the same type paddle I do. His length paddle is 207. His arms are normal length as compared to his body size, therefore, to realize his power band/comfort zone requires a longer paddle.
All in all, length of paddle is relevant to the size of the person, their individual stroke and desire for efficiency. A 210 paddle may be short for a 6 footer but long for a little guy like me.
I think you said it well when you suggested that I try, gradually, lengthening my paddle and see what results. Everyone should try various lengths until they find the most efficient length for their personal style.
I have an adjustable paddle and use the GPS and heart monitor to determine the correct “zone/band” for me. I had to experiment with this for a long time and it took much change before I determined the current length I use.
I appreciate you sharing your thoughts as I will consider what you have suggested as it makes good sense.
Thanks,
Jack
I’ll be going out next Monday, so…
just for the heck of it I’ll shorten my length lock to 210 which is the shortest I can get it and give it a try.
When I first got it I experimented starting with 213, but ended up with 215 being comfortable.
I never did try lower than 213 though.
JackL
I would be very interested in what both
you and Onnopaddle determined after trying a little shorter length.
I would appreciate it, if you guys had time, you letting me know what you thought. One interesting factor would be where in relation to your foot/ankle does does your paddle enter the water. This and other details regarding technique and efficiency would be of great interest to me.
By the way, the next focus we are considering is the benefit of the longer, but more slender blade. After initial research, we are finding this type blade to be more efficient than the slightly shorter but wider blade.
Thanks again for the thoughts and I look forward to results of your testing.
Jack
Been there done that already…
Reply to jjhall
Testing and R & D are basis for above reply, not just pulled from thin air. 212 - 215 lengths described are not considered 'short'. Been down just below 180 and back up again. Blade sizes from 5"X 16" - 7.5" X 21.5" Many different twists and constructions too.... Currently offering 2 well worked out sizes and because two are not enough to cover all shapes and size humans..... fine tuning two more. Even after this a conversation must take place to get things right for folks.
Onnopaddle, I apologize if my comments
regarding testing inferred that you did not do so. To the contrary, I was informed by your post and pleased to see you had taken so much time to gain the knowledge you shared.
Again, in my earlier post I stated there were many, such as yourself, that had forgotten more than I know about this subject.
Your post was very thorough and indeed confirmed you have good knowledge of the subject. It may be only my opinion, but I thought your post and mine agreed in many instances.
Again, I apologize for giving the inference that you had “…just pulled from thin air”. I had no intention to do so. Unfortunately, I couldn’t find any specifics in my posts that may have lead to you to this conclusion, or I would have clarified.
Thanks,
Jack
Brent Reitz’s Burning Column From
May 2002 HullSpeed wrote an interesting "essay" about this issue:
"Question: What effect does paddle length have on the forward stroke? How do you determine what is the optimum length for you?
WOW!, how can two little sentences make my head begin to reel! These are very difficult questions to do justice to.
Answer: Regarding paddle length and how it affects the forward stroke…if a paddle is too long, (which I see happening a lot in my clinics) it's very difficult for the paddler to get a "vertical" stroke. Simply due to the physics involved, the only way to get a powerful, vertical blade face would be to bury the paddle too deeply in the water. The other extreme I see with a paddle that is too long is that the stroke becomes a "sweep-ish stroke" vs. a power stroke. For a paddler to handle a "stick" that's too long means he/she must begin the stroke too far away from the side (gunwale) of the boat. The problem is that the blade face just keeps on cruising "outward" throughout the power phase exerting more of a "turning" force on the boat than a "forward" force. Conversely, if a paddle is too short, so will be the stroke! With a paddle that is too short, we tend to use a higher stroke rate, because it's easier to do so. The problem is that the "catch phase" is not a long as it can be, thereby reducing the amount of "stroke-length". Remember that every centimeter…or even millimeter of "extra stroke-length" is what we are striving for. In many instances the boat speed will actually be higher with a lower stroke rate using proper stroke mechanics. Even if boat speed remained equal, certainly the energy output of your body is much greater if you are flailing across the water at 120/strokes per minute, as opposed to being "Long & Strong".
Okay, now for the TOUGH ONE! "What is the optimum paddle length for me"? Jeezz, a question that is asked all the time and quite rightfully so. I wish I had the definitive answer for this one. In my opinion, there is no "clean" answer to this question because we are all different people, with different shapes, who want to do different things. I usually answer this question in the following manner: “My name is Brent Reitz. I race kayaks. I am five foot, nine inches tall, and weigh around 160 pounds. I am of a fairly average build, no extra long torsos or arms that have a tendency to throw "the standards" off. I use a 216 cm Epic "Junior-model" wing as my paddle of preference. When I paddle with a standard-type blade, I use a 220 cm paddle.”
I also use an Epic Length Loc "Mid-model" for two reasons. The breakdown ability is nice for travel & for use as a "spare" for safety. The other reason is the ability to adjust the blade-length for the conditions of thewater. If there is steep wind chop, I'll usually go down to 214 cm. If not, I'll usually never go higher than 216 with a wing. I adjust to a shorter paddle for the wind-chop, as I know the wave will be stopping me and I will need greater "acceleration" power. The acceleration power comes with the ability to achieve a high stroke rate in "bursts" of speed and power. The shorter the paddle, the easier these stroke rate "bursts" can be achieved. I adjust to a longer blade if the race (or trip) will be long, or if the water is fairly flat. The reason is Stroke Rate again. If the trip / race will be a long one, I will be going at a slower stroke rate. This allows me the increased efficiency of a long and relaxed stroke. The need for acceleration is not required, or at least not as great. Having said that…what have I really said? I guess I am just throwing out some guidelines to put in your database as you go out to buy your new "stick".
Here are some other tips:
1) If you are buying a wing, be sure you are going shorter than the size you use for a traditional paddle.
2) Also, if you are buying a wing, look at Blade-face surface area. Be careful to avoid blade shapes that are too large. The large blade face is for sprint racing…not what most of us are doing. They´re more about lots of power over short distances, not for us!
For a traditional blade, I usually stand on the dock and place the paddle vertically in front of me. I then reach up to the tip of the blade. If I can barely wrap my middle finger over the top of the blade at the first digit, it's the size I like (220 cm). You can try this too, but this really does not work for the super tall or very short folks out there. I suggest (at the risk of getting a lot of FLACK!) never using anything over a 225 cm for the tallest paddler, with the low end for a sea-kayaker being somewhere around 205 - 210 cm. The days of the gnarly Popeye-looking dudes bragging about what "manly-men" they are for dragging 240's or 250's thru the water are gone! It's all about efficiency. Yes, strength is a benefit, but not nearly all of it. The only time anything longer than 225 makes sense to me, is when you are paddling a very WIDE boat, like a double or sit-on-top and you need to reach across the gunwales just to get the blade in the water. To close on this subject, as you can see, most of my comments are based on "experience not science". I am sure there are studies on this sort of thing…somewhere. Perhaps the USACK could shed more light? I also know that Greg Barton's web site at www.epickayaks.com has some sort of formula you may want to check out. My suggestion is to DEMO paddles, lots of paddles. Then settle on something that "feels" right".
It is evident that for him 225 is too long and below 205/210 is too short.
Regards,
Iceman
Iceman
After finding Brent’s article awhile back, I hacksawed my Barton mid-marathon one piece from 218 to 216. My wife almost killed me ( a gift from her), but it worked out well for several boats. I met Brent at the “87” Marathon Natl’s. He won!
I’ll try it all tomorrow…
and get back with my thoughts.
I never stop learning and am always open for new ways to improve.
I almost wished that I hadn’t jumped the gun and gotton my mid wing Epic.
I firmly believe a slightly narrower blade from Onno would have suited me better, but I already have spent the bucks, so I will live with what I have.
JackL
JackL, I have heard the same type
reference to a longer more slender blade.
Personally, I took my old wing and sanded it down so it was 3/4" more narrow. I had to use some coating afterward as it wasn’t solid carbon and had some filler. I didn’t really care because I was going to retire this paddle anyway.
Obviously, I couldn’t make it longer, but I realized a noticeable difference in use after making the blades more narrow. The efficiency improved along with ease of use. There is something to this, but I don’t have the ability to experiment much further.
I wish it were as easy to make and adjustable blade as it was to make an adjustable shaft.
I am interested in results of your experiment today.
Thanks,
Jack
Man do I ever owe you !
We did a twelve miler and my intention was to go the first 100 yards with the paddle at 210, then change it back to my 215 and come back and tell you 210 was no good.
What a surprise! It was so comfortable, I kept it the whole way and I am going to stay with it.
It seemed that I didn’t have to work as hard to get the same results that I have been getting.
It makes me almost wonder if short and wide doesn’t equate to longer, but narrower.
Whatever, but thanks for asking me to experiment. I am going to keep it at that length.
As far as where my blade entered the water,in relation to my feet it was pretty hard to tell since it was rough and I had to wear a skirt all day, and couldn’t see my feet. But guessing, I would say about 5" in front of them, (toward the bow)
Hope wharever you decide works well for you.
Now we need to figure out how to go faster!
Cheers,
JackL