Also Confused
Proving yet again that I am a slow learner: My heeling and turning experience generally has been to heel the boat … if the boat turns the direction I want, that is good … if it turns the wrong direction, I just heel it the other way (or change my destination!).
I have generally attributed this behavior to dyslexia. Now, I think it is because I get mixed or confusing signals from my various sensei
Charlie said: For a left turn, one heels left, increasing stern deflection to the right. Etc, Etc…
Kim responded: … knee steering heeling to the outside of the turn works very well. Right turn left heel and vice versa.
I will be glad to do whatever you tell me … or I can stick to my dyslectic approach!
Alright!
– Last Updated: Jan-12-11 9:41 PM EST –
We tend to generate a little headway or sternway with our paddles, and the hulls generally stall in curves, generating reverse headway, so "steering with the knees" which amounts to reverse carving, generally works and is a fun little game.
Slick composite hulls also tend to let the current roll by a little, again, increasing sternway.
confusing it can be indeed
because the effect you get when heeling your boat, depends on:
- the design of that boat;
- which side you heel;
- how much you heel the boat;
- the way the boat is (already) moving through the water.
Experimenting with your own boat is the only sure way to know it all.
Turns and Carving redoux for Confused
– Last Updated: Jan-12-11 7:41 PM EST –
Turning a watercraft is generally a function of initiating a yaw couple, an offset between the direction of the center of gravity and the hulls drift angle, by pulling or pushing the leading stem off course to one side and letting the paddlers weight, which continues on course, skid the stern around. Christies are achieved by pushing the stern into the skid
Carving is using the leading stems planes, whether bow or stern, to achieve or increase the stem offset from previous course.
For hulls with both planes in the water, most tripping/ touring paddlecraft, water exerts more force on the side that is heeled down so the end offsets in the opposite direction. This is demonstrable by getting one's hull running forward in a straight line, then dropping one knee. The bow will slowly, then as the stern skids, quickly, offset away from the heel. It's exactly the like as a wood chisel or Japanese chef's knife; both cut or veer away from their single bevels.
For forward carved turns we heel the hull away from the intended direction of turn.
One needs be under control for the demonstration. Newer FreeStyle paddlers often give a little extra umph to their final forward stroke which, if uncorrected, initiates a turn away from paddleside. Dropping the offside knee to initiate a carve to onside does not work then; the hull generally plows ~ straight ahead.
The over zealous paddler has initiated both left and right turns; kinda like telling a Labrador retriever to fetch and stay at the same time.
In reverse maneuvering, which includes knee steering with minimal reverse steerage or sternway, we heel towards the side of the intended turn.
I do the same Charlie
When on a slow moving creek or even not-so-slow. I always considered this technique an energy saver or when being a bit more truthful, just lazy. It’s a way to steer without having to extert energy with the paddle. In fact I was doing exactly that a few years back on the Silver R. in Florida when my kneeling thwart broke loose on the heeled side and I slid neatly into the water.
Pag
Thanks Charlie
– Last Updated: Jan-12-11 2:55 PM EST –
I suspected that some sternway was required, but couldn't extract that from your original post. This clarification filled in the gap.
Further, for teaching purposes, this is by far the most complete and understandable description of carving and why/how it works that I've ever seen. All the bits and pieces I've seen elsewhere, but never tied together as well. I've made a copy and put it in a folder with my teaching notes.
Marc Ornstein
P.S.
Regarding Pagayeur's broken thwart account. I recall that day and was surprised at how adeptly he was able to reenter his boat. Numerous large reptilian sightings earlier in the day may have provided incentive.
I don’t ski
but I think what you are saying is that skiers keep their weight on the outside foot - I guess that makes sense.
I’m with you
try one side, then the other, but end up someplace else just the same.
Surfing is when I try to do this
and if I’m going off a wave to the left (want to turn right), it seems counter-intuitive to me to lean the boat left. I would heel the boat right, apply a good forward stoke to hold the bow, and hope that the force of the current swings the stern left and straightens me out on the wave. Maybe I have it backwards, and maybe that’s why I don’t surf well.
Were gonna need diagrams
and a post finding dog! It took a long time to find this!
Aren’t y’all glad in two months we can banter on rocking chairs in Florida rather than unwilling to leave the cabin to shovel…
again… 20 inches…put it all away and it came back At least my boat behaves better.
Depends on the boat
And it usually also requires some paddle input.
An edgy boat like an Ocoee or a Viper will usually cut back nicely on a wave but it usually also requires either a stern static draw or pry to make it effective.
It is also frequently necessary to use a bit of “paddle drag” momentarily pull the boat back a bit onto the wave crest to free up the bow stem, then a quick, short forward stroke to pull the boat back into the trough after it has cut back.
You have to be careful with the edges, though. Heeling the boat to the left, while applying a static or active stern pry on the right side, to cut the boat back to “surfer’s right” (river left) is an easy way to take a swim.
Using paddle drag to move backward
– Last Updated: Jan-13-11 1:24 PM EST –
... a bit onto the crest where you can move the bow .... Good one Pete! Never thought of that (at least not consciously anyway) ....
Yeah
Bob Foote has a short video that demonstrates that well: http://bobfoote.com/bob/tips/frontsurfingp3.htm
Some of his other videos are worth watching as well.
You know the sensation of sliding off a surf wave to river left or river right and not being able to turn the bow back upstream. The trick is to create enough drag with your paddle to pull the boat back out of the trough onto the crest (or foam pile in the event of a wave/hole) but not all the way off the wave. As soon as the bow is unpinned and the boat is teetering on the crest, a sharp, quick stern pry or draw kicks the front back upstream and then a forward stroke to slide back into the trough.
Nice videos
wish they were a little bigger. Its hard to tell which way he is leaning the boat, but its pretty clear that it is paddle strokes more than boat lean that are controlling the boat - makes sense on a wave like that. I need to work on my stern prys and draws
I think
he is leaning into the turns slightly rather than against and utilizing the force of the stern draw.
But he is paddling a Dagger Ovation (I think) which really doesn’t have much of an edge to carve on.
which side to heel?
I’ve noticed over the years in classes and on the old newsgroup forums, a lot of folks are confused by which is the correct side to heel. Fact is that heeling on either side will facilitate turning. Without going into technical explanations, just remember that once a turn is initiated, heeling to either side will promote the turn. Heeling to the offside will result in a snappier turn. In river paddling the decision is purely situational and based on experience. In FS Canoeing the heeling is done to a dedicated side depending on the named maneuver. An Axle for instance is always an onside turn heeled to the onside, a Christie is the same, a Post is an onside turn heeled to the offside, and the Wedge is an offside turn heeled to the onside.
Pag
Sure!
– Last Updated: Jan-14-11 5:45 PM EST –
John is quite right. For tripping/touring boats with both stems in the water, heeling to either side shortens the hull in the water, increases rocker, eliminated and deadwood in the stems, all three enhancing the hulls turning ability. Heeling away from the turn adds the additional factor of starting the leading stem carving into the turn.
Depends on the boat
I have found that highly rockered whitewater boats with very full, bottle-shaped stems sometimes turn more easily when heeled into the turn, although the more sharp-chined hulls prefer to be leaned off-side.
I paddle an Impluse
since my Encore got stolen last month. Not much of an edge on either of those boats. I got to paddle an Ocoee New Years Day - now that’s a tippy boat, but great secondary stability. I don’t know about it being edgy - it was cold, and I was too chicken to try to surf it.
This has been a great thread
Thanks to Marc, Charlie and everyone else who contributed. I learned a lot.
Erik