CROSS POST
So, we’ve applied a couple sweeping forwards and we’re crossing the rails with our paddleblade to stick a Cross Duffekbut instead of cross heeling towards the offside turn we heel onside. Is the turn slower or faster? What is the potential brace? WHy would we heel that way?
Know from previous posts
and from experience with my Yellowstone Solo that the Post is a faster turn since the hull wants to carve away from the heal. Out of force of habit I will usually go to an axle/cross axle, but when I do try a post/cross post, the boat does turn easier.
The brace is a little tougher – I guessing that the correct answer is a bracing pry since the paddle is in position anyway for the duffek. Instinctively, I’d probably cross back over to the onside and try a low brace – hoping I got there before I tipped over.
seems to
me that Eckilson has it right in regard to the boat carving away from the heel creating a quicker turn. As to the brace for a cross post, once the blade is planted merely giving a tug on it will provide the only brace that I see possible. Is there more?
Peter
Well, you pretty much nailed it.
So heeling the boat away on an onside post also carves the turn. So which do you think is faster: a post or a cross post and why?
Back to your bracing on a cross post… can you really manage to cross back over to your on side and execute a low brace before you tip over? Seems to me that when I need a brace to keep me upright I need to do it immediately. A righting pry is ideally what is needed on a post to keep from going over. I know very few people who can pull this off instinctively when needed. I practice them, but never seem to quite manage it when I really need it in a “field” situation.
You have a high brace type
position in the cross post. Just draw the blade in with a quick snap as you slide your downhill knee toward the paddle.
Actually the post is a stable turn on flatwater with ample opportunity to just fall in the boat and unweight the downhill knee.
Add current going into an eddy and things may change.
Cool Beans, but
Using Axles and Cross Axles the bow is skidding, being drawn into the maneuver/turn by paddle pressure. For Posts/Cross Posts, we consciously heel and weight forward to induce the bow to carve into the maneuver. That tightens the turn because the bow is helping set up the Yaw Couple and because we are weighting forward to bury the bow, which raises the stern.
Upright, most paddlecraft present two equal bow planes to the water. Heeling increases the surface area of the downside plane and decreases the area of the raises side, increasing bow deflection away from the heel. We see similar results in cutting implements. German heritage knives have equal bevels and cut straight. Better Japanese knives have one flat side and one beveled side and will cut away from the bevel, much like wood chizels skip away from the beveled side.
All the above works for normal sport/touring/tripping/FreeStyle hulls, but not always so for whitewater hulls with extreme rocker and flat bottoms that tend to present three forward planing surfaces. Hell direction to carve can be very different hull specific in whitewater hulls.
Brace? Slicing to the offside rail for a righting pry is the quicker option, when spilling onside, a standard Cross High Brace functions for the rare offside capsize. As Kim suggests, weighting the offside knee is probably the better solution.
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Faster? Post or X-Post?
Canoeist11, you ask which is “faster”. I’m not trying to play with words but simply to understand the question.
To do a cross-post the paddler has to swing the blade into to the air, across the bow, and the re-plant it in the water. All that takes time and would slow down the entirety of the turning move.
But maybe that’s not what you mean by faster.
If you’re asking whether the post or cross-post can turn the boat faster, ONCE THE DUFFEK IS PLANTED, that’s an interesting question and can only be answered by empirical testing by different paddlers in different boats. Forced to answer on a TV quiz show, I’d say the cross-post is faster for me because my arms and back are in a stronger position to yank on the Duffek.
Conciously weight forward on posts?
CEW, you seem to be saying we consciously shift paddler weight forward on posts and cross posts, but not on axles and cross-axles, and this weighting forward tightens the turn by burying the bow and unweighting the stern.
I follow that if it’s true. But is it?
Maybe other paddlers shift their weight forward more on posts than axles, but I’m not sure I do. I certainly don’t shift weight forward when thigh-strapped into my SRT or one of my whitewater canoe. Nor do I shift weight forward when sitting on a tractor seat canoe with my feet on a foot brace, nor when fore-aft braced, between foot brace and back band, in one of my kayaks. Yet I do both posts and axles in all these different paddling positions in all these different hulls.
Even when unstrapped in a kneeling canoe, I rarely come up off the seat in “functional” paddling situations to pitch the bow, much less to do forward knee thrusts or transverse positions. I do most functional paddling from the same seated position with minimal fore or aft weight shifting. (I think.)
Weighting my argument slightly differently, if I were a fore-aft shifting paddler, why couldn’t I shift weight forward during an axle or cross-axle just as much as I could during a post or cross-post. I see some paddlers doing that kind of forward weight shifting on all turns.
Hence, I buy the physics that some hulls can turn more sharply on a post than axle–even the metaphors to chisels and knives–but I don’t think it has much to do with forward weight shifts unless the paddler is weight shifting on one kind of turn and not the other.
Am I missing something? Perhaps I’m fooling myself here on the couch that I don’t shift during a post when I actually do so in a boat. Many strange things have happened on my couch.
Well, the cross post generally is faster
because you are accelerating with more momentum into the turn with either an uncorrected forward, slicing stroke or sweep from the onside while carving the turn (and yes I will concede to Charlie I am referring to some typical moderately rockered hulls; not touring boats); usually more powerful and faster than a J correction or deep C initiation from the onside into a post.
The greater velocity and momentum …
… going into the turn would make a difference. I buy that. Of course, you could go into an on-side post with more velocity by using cross-forward strokes/sweeps instead of on-side J’s or deep C’s.
But even if the velocity and momentum into the post and cross-post Duffeks were equal, I think that I could turn more sharply in my boats with the cross-post simply because of the position of my back and arms. (I remain seated with no pitching forward or transversing the knees.) I can yank a cross turn of any kind (axle, post) more powerfully for the same bio-mechanical reason my cross-draw is more powerful than my draw: the muscle loaded position of my twisted back and the better leverage position of my shaft arm.
In my whitewater boat
– Last Updated: Jan-06-15 6:40 AM EST –
I'm trying to think of a time when I would have my paddle on the offside and a lean to the onside. The only time I can think of that happening (intentionally) is for an offside sideslip or sculling draw. I definitely lean into turns in my whitewater boat.
In my Yellowstone Solo, the boat turns easier on flatwater when leaned away from the turn in a post or cross post, I'm sure for the reasons described by Charlie above. Add a little current and I can go back to leaning into the turn in an axle or cross axle.
Bracing to the offside is tough, and having an onside lean with the paddle on the offside is pretty much the same situation. My low brace is pretty reliable, but that righting pry - forget it. If I have to rely on a righting pry to save me then I'm probably going to take a swim. Something else to practice...
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Good points
– Last Updated: Jan-06-15 7:43 AM EST –
Most cross moves are more powerful; the caveat being the paddle placement mastered and the recovery out of cross maneuvers mastered. Recovery often involves a cross forward just to get boat heel leveled.
Its always better to be taking a stroke when adjusting boat heel for stability.. especially when starting.
The other nice thing about cross moves in general is that they improve your flexibility. I am looking forward to doing some FS when weather is warm just for this positive. It will be part of my recovery from chemo.
Oops gotta go..treatment. Taking my computer.
While peoples eyes may glaze at the 300 postings or so this far, its interesting reading when confined to a chair for six hours!
You bring up good, valid points
which I really had not considered. I generally execute a cross posts and cross axles in a body position much the way you do, especially in doing creeking.
Summary
Both Cross Post and C Axle are faster than their onside mirror movements because we accelerate into both Cross maneuvers with sweeping forward strokes compared braking into the inside ones with J stern pushaways. The extra speed yields increased momentum; better carry through the turn. Both Cross maneuvers also benefit from our tendency towards more vertical shaft angles with reduce bracing but increase the cross draws effectiveness. a yield due to better blade physics. And both also benefit from the bio-mechanical advantage of extra paddler power when we uncoil into the sweeping cross draw to the bow.
Cross Post is similarly more effective than the Cross Axle because the Onside Heel brings shaft angles more upright, better blade physics, and the bow carves into the turn, better hull physics. Weighting forward increases the carving deflection or offset into the maneuver.
This contrasts with the C Axle where the bow is skidding and is drawn into the offside turn. Weighting forward on an axle may,[boat specific], slow the turn be starting the bow carving onside, away from the maneuver.
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agree, the righting pry is a last ditch
effort in ww to stay upright. My single sticking evolved into angling the c1 so 90% of the “hits” (standing waves, holes, drops) were angled for bracing to my onside.
If you watch ww slalom racers they frequently will initiate the turn leaning the opposite direction to which they are turning (pivot turns initiated by slicing an end under the surface). So their paddling has evolved into being quicker, and more precise but at the same time a bit riskier. They mitigate the risk through practice, and benefit from having race and practice conditions that are constant.
For those of us who are less advanced, you can overcome a whole lot with a good downstream lean/orientation and a solid low brace. While I refer to “freestyle” as “fancy paddlin’” folks shouldn’t see that as an insult. Leanin’ one way and turnin’ another way is tricky, more advanced stuff.
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CROSS WEDGE
– Last Updated: Jan-07-15 1:41 PM EST –
Bio-Mechanics render the Cross Christie impossible to perform in a manner consistent with forward, reverse of cross reverse varients, so it's not worthwhile to discuss it. While a little esoteric, and totally unbraced, the Cross Wedge is the next functional FreeStyle maneuver.
We're carrying the feathered paddleblade across the hull for an onside maneuver, but, on several touring hulls, it remains a worthwhile method to carve an onside turn. The standard initiation, a little J to set up a yaw couple and start the hull turning onside slows the hull and reduces momentum. Then we cross the paddle and stick the inverted jam, backface to the hull, while heeling offside. The paddle's blade increases the heel's bow carve, and we ride the Wedge for ~3 seconds before concluding with a heroic Sweep.
A more committed initiation has us applying a sweeping cross forward to accelerate into the turn as we cross heel the hull, but the feathered recovery to the Jam placement requires fine balance.
Questions: Do bent paddles aid the maneuver? Why do we prefer an inverted Jam? What is the theoretical brace?
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Alternate initiation cross forward
I tend to have the boat heeled a little to whatever side my paddle is on… so if I initiate with a J I tend to have the paddle heeled to the J side… and then have to cross the hull with the paddle and also cross heel.
Thus there is a moment when there is a flat hull which also tends to stall out the start of the skid I just tried to do.
With a straight blade the cross forward links perfectly with a slice back to just in front of your knees… open the back edge a little once the paddle is where you want it and there you are.
Bents are a little trickier… If you don’t invert the blade as in an inverted jam, the shaft of the oaddle will extend outward from the boat, enhancing your role as fish census taker.
Its worthwhile even if you can’t get out in a canoe now to air paddle in a room clear of breakables. Go back to the start of this thread and find a bent and a straight. Sometimes words are so much babble and taking the boat and water out of the equation helps. The fear factor of a dump or crash is a psychological hurdle for some and very real.
If you have an understanding of where to put the paddle in dry land exercises , progress on the water is faster. Sooner will you be able to execute the power you sometimes need or want and you will be able to make each stroke count.
Remember its not about dance or impressing others. Its about making your paddling efficient so a twenty mile day is not an exhausting ordeal.
Inverted jam, back face to hull?
Really?
I don’t recall ever doing a cross-wedge, either functionally or dysfuntionally. However, just playing with a paddle in the bedroom, I think I would naturally place the power face to the hull. Two reasons:
- If I initiate with an on-side J and then cross the paddle over hull, the power face is naturally facing the hull as I cross with my grip hand thumb up. So, my natural inclination would be simply to plant the cross-bow jam that way.
- I might want to initiate instead with a cross-forward, with which I am very comfortable and experienced. The return on a cross-forward stroke is in-water with the power face facing the hull. Thus it would be natural to slice the cross-forward in-water return up into the cross-wedge position. Again, that would put the power face, not the back face, against the hull.
In either case, my recovery stroke after completing the cross-wedge placement would be a cross-forward stroke (maybe with a little cross-sweep component).
The only reason I could see for me to do an inverted jam (back face against the hull) would be if I were using a bent shaft paddle. The inverted jam would be easier for me with a short bent shaft paddle than with a long straight paddle. The shorter shaft would make it easier for me to plant the inverted blade and it would enable me to keep my balance better.
I can see a cross-sweep recovery stroke out of an inverted cross-wedge, but I don’t think the placement difficulty of the inverted blade would be worth it to me. A cross-forward recovery would be easy for me out of a power-face-against-the-hull cross-wedge.
But as I said, I don’t recall ever doing this stroke at all, so I would really like to practice both a regular and inverted cross-wedge in the water. So please keep this thread going until April and I’ll report back.
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cool
– Last Updated: Jan-11-15 3:35 PM EST –
The Cross Wedge is more useful in touring hulls and works way better with bent paddles which we usually use in touring hulls, so yeah, Backface against hull works out, blade angle optimizing the increase in the bow's carve into the maneuver and leaving paddle and top hand in place to load the powerface for the concluding sweep.j
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Frequently grabbed a paddle
I found that I was frequently grabbing a paddle as I worked my way through this thread. It’s tough enough remembering your own paddle strokes, never mind trying to visualize a new approach form someone else. Good advice.