GL and Alaskan paddles?

Advice
#21

Hello again Jyak.

Yes the lake is 8 minutes away from me and I am there nearly every morning when the sun is not yet up, but I have enough light to until the ropes holding my kayak down to the rack it rides on. We are in the Wind River valley. It’s not actually known for fierce wind (although it can get that way at times) but for near constant wind. 3 to 15 MPH is what we expect almost every day. According to the local weather station the Wind River Valley has no wind about 30 - 40 days a year. ALL the rest of them have some wind. A heavy wind is enough to drive all the boats off the lake, but we have them that wild maybe 20 days a year. 50 MPH up to about 75 MPH, but those are less common then the days the wind doesn’t blow at all.

In all the years I have been here (since 1993) I have seen wind top 100 MPH only 3 times. When I lived in Western Nevada 100+ was not all that uncommon and I have seen winds well over that there, but never here.

The wind fetch is what we need to pay attention to here. If we get it from the North or the South the length of the lake can give the waves a long time to build up. A 35 MPH north wind gives a LOT larger waves then a 50 MPH west wind. 35 MPH over 20 miles is going to stack them up far more then 50 MPH will over 2-3 miles. The canyon between the dam and Thermopolis acts as a wind tunnel and the winds shear off the tops and race down the faces of the mountains to dump on the north end of the lake. Dropping from 8000-9000 feet to 4800 feet in a very short time, the can sneak up on you very fast. When the horizon is at a steep up-hill angle you can’t see it coming many times until it come over the tops and by then you have just a few minutes before it gets to you. In a kayak, in the middle of the lake, say 3 miles from land, you are not going to be able to get to shore before the wind overtakes you in those conditions. When that happens the waves are a lot higher then I like to deal with. The highest waves I have ever dealt with on Boysen were about 3-1/2 to 4 feet. I have seen them get 7-8 feet, but I am NOT getting in that kind of water. Not yet anyway. I am far too new at this to jump into chop that tall. I like chop up to about 3 feet. It’s fun. 3.5 to 4 feet is within my abilities if my mission is to get off the lake. But once it’s over 3 feet tall the fun is about gone for me. I intend to keep adding to my skills by going onto rough water and I expect someday I can feel OK with higher waves, but that’s not this day. I am still too new.

100% of my experience in salt water was when I was a Marine and all was with inflatable boats, Zodiacs and PBRs. (not counting transport vessels up to and including the USS Coral Sea) So kayaking in the sea is something I hope to do, but I have ZERO experience with that as of now.

My only true concern with sustained speed is because I want to go with my Sister and her friends up to Alaska in the coming year, and I don’t want them to have to wait on me. I am not able to sustain 4MPH. I can get a bit more than that, but only for about 30 minutes. My average is in the mid to above mid 3MPH range. Now I don’t go straight through because I like to stop and drink some water and look at the coves and rocks, but if I were to line out and press hard I might get 4MPH for a short time. Maybe an hour or 2, but I am not there yet. I expect my technique is not up to snuff yet. She tells me that 3.5 MPH is OK and they often don’t go much faster themselves just because they also like to slow down and see all they can see. maybe I’ll be OK. And I can’t go for at least 1 more year, so in that time I really hope I can get more refined with my strokes.
a bit over a week ago I paddled 23.8 miles. I went out Friday at 7:00 PM and only paddled for about 90 minutes before I put to shore and made camp. I left again at first light and finished my trip at about 1:00 in the afternoon. The first leg I went maybe 4 miles. The next day starting at about 5:45 and ending at 1:00 I covered the rest of it, so that was about 19.8 miles. I di dmake several stops and enjoyed seeing the antelope and the birds along the shores, so I was not pushing myself all that hard. I guess I went near 20 miles in about 7 hours. That’s only about 2.8 MPH so it was my longest trip so far, but not my best time by quite a lot. It sure was fun however.

#22

I figured you were dialed into the region. Similar here with wind direction. SE winds can blow straight from the ocean for about 200 miles to The Head of The Bay.

My limit is 36" waves. I have no aspiration to manage anything higher and won’t go out or will turn around if I suspect conditions will worsen. I respect and admire people who punch through that big stuff like it’s a papers wall. Too old. Too infirmed. Too much like work. I do enjoy studying technique.

Figured weather could sneak up on you out there. The bay is predictable if you know weather patterns and warning signs. Fronts can be on you in 30 minutes. Fair weather clouds are a good indicator, but development of upper level clouds is often a warning that can precede a powerful storm by as little as 2 hours. If you’re on the opposite shore you better power stroke back. I NEVER leave shore without a full cycle of the NOAA report and log conditions. I switch to 16 when I approach the open water.

Like your Lake, we have many tributaries. Conditions tell me where I can launch to take advantage of lee shores, or limit exposed paddling while enroute to protected areas. Tide tables let you know if seaweed or draft in specific areas will limit travel. High astronomical tidal warning, predicting 3 ft above normal means get in the boat and explore the rivulets that are typically 6" to 18" deep. Certain times of the year feature fragrant or colorful blooms. Now it’s the Marsh Mallow (hibiscus). I found Indian Soap (prolific around RI pond), Button Bush, water Iris, delicate Swamp Rose to name a few. The logs include sightings, because seasons are short.

My minimum trip is an 8 miles route just to get a workout trip in. A good trip is 12 to 16.5 miles. Long trips are 20 to 27 miles. A few over 32 with 38.75 miles my longest at 8 hrs 21 min. The last five miles was hell - dehydrated, bonked, overheated with a 4 mph tailwind, paddle stop/paddle stop. VHF beep beep beep: TS developing over (10 miles away). I didn’t care, what it was is what it was. We learn from our mistakes. I’ve faced mortality - I don’t taunt it, but also don’t fear it. I learn and adapt.

Trying to build back up following shoulder issues and currently I’m in your speed range.

I upgraded from Werner 240 cm Camano carbon fiberglass touring blade. Jumped to a Werner Kalliste 240 cm. Then tried a 250 cm Kalliste touring blade at 99 sq in. Other than switching while loaning my blade to a guest. I’m sold on the 250 cm Kalliste. Plan to explore blades favored by some of the experience paddlers. I hope I understand the type of conditions they face. Not suggesting my equipment or techniques; just saying what I use.

Physiology, stamina or even kayaking goals vary. I lack the reflexes and sense of balance of many kayaker so my methods evolved to take advantage of my attributes. The low angle takes advantage of core strength and makes it easy to remain in aerobic zone. The touring blade allows a higher cadence with less stress; however, I’m realizing a paradox in using the long shaft. With a longer shaft, the paddle arch increases and higher blade speed creates more turbulence. Time to take my 240 cm Kalliste out on the same trip. So far, my experience still favors the 250 cm.

Now that we have a good idea about each other’s paddling environment, time to start experimenting. Lots of details packed in the various paddle threads if you haven’t visited. I’ve explained my paddle technique at least twice in different threads, so rather than repeat it, you may be able to find it. If not, I can explain it. I know you don’t have immediate access to the Bay, but hopefully it may help local novice readers to understand what the bay offers and how to accommodate the challenges to explore the subtle beauty of the open bay and salt marshes.

#23

All my paddles are "poor mans tools’ because we don’t make enough money to throw much around. My GL paddles are all hand made and cost me the price of the wood and one of them is made from a warped 2X4 that was in our pile behind the shed, so to me it was free.

The store bough paddles we have are the 2 Anna got when she ordered the two Loon 106 kayaks (They say “Made in Taiwan”. Long and large blades) and one that’s a foot shorter with blades that are also large but not as large as the 1st two. I use that one with my Loon106 because the long one is difficult for me to bring out of the water after my strokes due to me being close to the water and having short arms to boot. and the Lon is wide enough to cause me to “bind up” with an 8 foot paddle. In the Chatham or in the old Pyranha Everest 390 (12 feet 9-1/2 inches long, 20.5" wide) the 8 foot paddles are fine because the hulls of those kayaks are a loth narrower.

I have tied the stoke I see shown on line, where you bring the blades out just behind the hip but find I can’t get the same results as I do when I use the stroke I do with the GL paddles, letting them come back to the 5:00 and 7:00 positions. Lifting water has not seemed to be a problem for me because I have the blades close to the 6;00/12;00 angle at the back of my stroke and they slice out with very little splash. Paulo Ouellet from Dancing with the Sea showed me that with GL paddles but I do the same with spoon blades and it works very well for me (I think)

A fact that makes me wonder about what I am doing is that I know 2 women who are true experts and one is about 5’6" and has arms just slightly longer then mine, the other being 5’ 3" and having arms even shorter then mine and they are both faster in their cruising speeds. One, the shorter of them, told me that because her boat is shorter a bit and 24 pounds lighter, and she is 50 pounds lighter. I described my stroke to her over the phone and she tells me it should like I am doing it well, but without seeing it she can’t coach me any more. I have no camera and no one to use one even if I did. The next bit of money I need to spend will be on a warmer wet-suit top or something along that line because the fall time is coming and I have only a 1.5MM suit top for now. I do have one located that’s a 5MM thick vest and I believe if I use that, with my existing top and put a climbing jacket over it all, I should be good for all cool weather (the jacket is from my Ice Climbing days, and is waterproof and fit over anything I need it to)
So a Go-Pro type camera may be in my future just so I can send video to people who say they will help me if I can show them what I am doing,(Paulo being one of them) but that’s an expense I need to put in order of importance.

Winter paddling here is a no-go. All the lakes simply freeze over. So for the time from Mid November to late march I am going to be studying and reading, but not putting anything into practice unless I drive to Oregon and go out with my sister and her friends on the coast. But that may not be in the cards at all this winter. We’ll just have to see.

I have given some thought to building myself a light weight skin on frame kayak but again the expense of even buying the plans and ordering the types of wood I’d need will cause me to have to budget for it. Mnay of the kits I have looked at cost as much or more then simply buying a new kayak. If I do decide to make one I think I’ll make something shorter then my Chatham. Probably 14-16 feet. It’s just in the thinking stage as of now.
I have no indoor shop large enough I can build any kayak in in, so making one outside I’d have to get all things ready and watch the weather so I don’t find a spring wind coming in to blow everything away. March and April are the times we can expect the hard winds . Glue ups have to be done at a time when the wind is light. I can tie the frame down and let the wind blow once the glue is all set and strong, but between the start and the setting of that glue I have to have a few days of winds no heavier then 10 MPH. So when I do the assembly of the frame would not be up to me. It’s up to God.
There is so much to learn and so much to know in this world of kayaks, I an still such a beginner… but if there wasn’t, I’d probably get bored with it too fast. I expect it’s going to hold my interest and festination until I die because it’s so fun and there is so much to learn. At my age I don’t think I can ever exhaust the pool of knowledge I can accumulate before I die, even if I live 30 more years.

#24

Szihn, you bring up a much overlooked point that I appreciate. While raising children, I saved coffee money to buy a fishing reel. As they grew and went their way, my financial stability grew exponentially. I’m happy, because they havent had to experience my struggles. Now I buy what I want. I love the outdoors, hiking/camping was a passion (bad knees). Joined scouting for my son and learned. Trips were $8-10 included site/good food. Took up bicycling Rails/Trails paths, until aimless crowds became a problem. Finsl straw was my avg speeds spike well over the radar patrolled speed limit. I returned to canoeing and bought two, along with a 9 ft kayak. I’ve barely used the canoe. But reading posts makes me want to go back, especially because I can take my sister’s husband out when she kayaks. He has muscular degeneration, but hangs on our recall about trip. The forum has broadened my outlook.

An experienced boater can extract more out of any boat and gear, but excells with the best equipment. Some boaters never need anything approaching best to enjoy the experience. Despite my claim that the technique I use is efficient. I’m worn out after each trip. Whether its 8 miles or 38 miles, I burn off any residual energy for muscle conditioning. Avg speed for a next day trip show it, unless I plan for sequential days. We all fit in at some point based on expectations, our level of comfort, and our desire to grow.

I don’t go to your level with conditions. I’m fair weather. Usually water/air over 65°/65° before thinking about it. My peak year was about 62 trips during the season. I managed 11 trips when I started back up this. July. None in August - prep/cleanup, travel, returning boats to storage, weather and obligations are killers.

Outside of formal training, you might start with you tube videos. A member posted several, including a Werner video that showed a number of styles and paddle options. My style is similar to the paddler in an orange boat. Economy paddles at least highlight design deficiencies; to me, the worst of a bad paddle is flex. I found good paddles in the $139-289 range. I’m happy in $300-489 range. Before upgrading paddles, class you collection by length and blade design; subdived if necessary to weight and style. Compare with each boat. Switch with your wife. I need to go back and reevaluate after reading advice. It’s a good place to start.

My goal is a good erect “supported” posture. Locked into pegs, thigh braces and seat/back rest. Relax and don’t over-extended. Concentrated on good form (as in learning to shoot, form and muscle memory is the foundation. I believe speed comes with good form). Don’t try to force the boat, but just increase speed with focus on clean entry and exit. Keep your motions as fluid as possible. Concentrate on how you lock into the boat and how body motions influence the boat. My strokes use to go back to about 5 o’clock, but I started to release at around 45° back; going past that had less effect on forward motion and more on direction control. Don’t push harder until you can paddle as noiselessy as possible. Once satisfied, keep stroke shorter but faster. Instead of yawing left and right, the boat begins to roll slightly along the glide axis. I imagine how the rocking is breaking the surface tension (key word “imagine”), like rocking a scoop into firm ice cream. It took several trips to go from mid 50s to 60 stroke per minute, before it became automatic, then several more trip before hitting 70 spm. After my layoff for the shoulder injury, I was hitting 75 spm without conscious effort. If you watch videos of members in waves using high angle, paddling looks reflexive (unless I’m missing something). Its possible that allows more focus on balance. I’m shooting in the dark. So comments are welcome. Initially. Let the paddle find its center as you execute the stroke. Then increase firmness of grip. You can even close your eyes as you improve to see how you track. Also test the glide after a stroke. Use an app to monitor progress.

There’s a trade off between efficiency, power, glide and pushing the boat towards its hull speed. Like a bike, more energy goes toward overcoming air resistance as speed increases. Even a car with a 0-60 speed of 3.6 seconds can hit 120 mph in a 1/4 mile but may hit the wall around 165 mph after a mile. NASCAR avg top speeds are over 200 mph, higher with Formula One and Indy. So efficiency with a given hull becomes more critical as distance increases. That’s why I go all out pushing the limit and beyond to wrap up a short trip. That’s when I hit afterburner.

#25

Funny you mentioned shooting and "muscle memory. I have been an combat tactics instructor most of my adult life and I had the same thought. Conditioning the body to do the correct movement from slow and precise repetitious movements has to be the answer. Speed comes all by itself. But I am using the internet to watch videos and try to learn by watching others that are very good at what they do. Some are very gracious and helpful and other are jerks and “too good” to be civil. No matter. I can learn from nice people as well as I can from a person who would flunk 1st grade citizenship class.
I have had NO one-on-one instruction but many have given me good advice (yourself included) and I am making progress every week. It’s not as good as having a good coach fact to face, but it is a LOT better then giving up and not trying at all, which is something a few have told me to do.

I have only used one high-end paddle. The man who sold me my Chatham had one and it was pricy. He said he spent a bit over $500 for it. He let me try it and I was grateful, but I didn’t do as well with it as my long large cheepie that we got with the Loons, let alone better. The paddle was super light but the blades were much smaller and the shaft was about 1.5 feet shorter. It was nice, but like my first 2 GL paddles, it just didn’t seem to move me and the kayak very much as companied to the larger longer paddle I am used to. I expect it comes back to my lack of perfection with my technique, because about everyone I talk to says the carbon paddles are “so much better”. But for me, at the stage I am at now, my cheap Taiwanese paddle is the one I do best with. I have my over-sized GL paddle about 90% done now and I will probably have it ready to test tomorrow. I’ll see then if I made another one that’s sub-=standard, or if I am starting to figure it out.

#26

Just my opinion: I prefer the Greenland paddle because it’s simple; elegant. Every face is a power face. No such thing as upside down. Other paddles: not so simple.

Some folks like simple. Some folks like complicated.

#27

Good point Rex. I plan to get into GP world by making my own. Based on expert advice fro the forum. The forum has overwhmed me with info and zi need to digest it.

Szihn, I figured you would have FA background and could connect. I saw an Army CI guy take an introductory class. He literally threw the gun across the room when he drew a red handle revolver. I push my boat hard and it goes fast. Put into motion. What you know. Muscle memory and form. Take hand to hand skills… Slow to pick up motions. Then increase tempo. You don’t need no stinking good paddle. One day you’ll want one and it won’t be any argument about why. My problem is I want to figure if I missed something as my method evolved. Go to work. Don’t have to go fast initially.

#28

Szihn, curious if you spent time at Camp Perry and know of a civy named Mike Curtis, from the late 80s to early 90s, associated with FA programs.

I don’t have time for basic classes, and I tend to be slow on the upstart. Driving courses were hard to keep up with. I need time to assimilate. If I don’t, I adapt. Besides trial and error is fun. Did it my whole life.

#29

Yes Juak, I was there a few times but far more in Camp Pendleton, Vamp Lejeune and Quantico. I did shoot at Perry, but that was as a “side line” to the type of shooting and movement/communications training I was involved with. I did well with rifles (M14s mostly) but my strong suit was handguns, officially the 1911, and also I did much of my shooting with Revolvers. DOD boys and many in the diplomatic service were placed in stations where for some reason the government saw autos as “military guns” and they fronded on them in the hands of non–military personnel. (the USA does not have a market cornered on idiotic emotion driven laws) So I did much of my shooting and I trained a lot of people to use revolvers. There was a man who was "the guy to beat’ on the Civilian Ohio NRA team. I can’t remember his name now, but the may was a wizard with a rifle and could make even the best of the USMC Rifle team stand up and take notice when he was on the line. He was in his early 70s when I was in my mid 20s. I wish I could remember his name but it escaped me now. I DO REMEMBER many of the lessons he taught to me. He KNEW what worked and how to use that knowledge. He’d be about 110 -113 now …so I am doubtful he’s around anymore. But if he was, he was tough enough I am sure I would not be all that surprised.

#30

Curtis was more artisan. His skills were in line with techs like Novak, Morris, Lauck, Heinie. 1911.