You missed this:
“The lifetime guarantee is for any defects or delamination.”
I have a Columbia jacket that has a bad zipper and the place I bought it acted like I didn’t know how to zip up a jacket. I wish I had 5+ years out of it.
Although feel free to make your point without clinging onto my post.
8-10 years sounds good
but when I sent my 3 year old rogue dry top in for repair, kokatat told me it had been “abused” and wanted to charge me to return it. They wound up fixing the pin holes under arms and sending back at their expense, which was very cool. New holes appeared in 4 more uses or so and I retired the jacket. Awesome piece of gear I used 1-2 a week for 3 years. Still not sure how I abused it though.
Good experience with Kokatat Gore Tex
My buddy, Dave sent his drysuit to Kokatat to have his neckseal replaced. While they had the suit they inspected it and found some very minor delamination in the croth that Dave wasn’t aware of. They let him know what they had found and that they were replacing the suit, which they did. It was replaced because of the Gore Tex warranty. The fabric had failed. It hadn’t leaked, it had visibly failed.
Emboldened by Dave’s experience I sent my suit in for a neck gasket replacement rather than do it myself. While they had the suit they tested it and found a bunch of pinhole leaks that I wasn’t aware of. About 13 in total and these had nothing to do with GoreTex. I understood that I had worn the fabric out in some places and was happy to pay the extremely reasonable fee to have those holes patched.
Kokatat is good and will continue to get my business.
So will Gore Tex. I am an outdoor retailer (37 years) and I’ve used a lot of products made by a lot of companies out of a lot of different materials and my experience with Gore Tex, for WPB, has been the best overall and their warranty is just fine with me.
Jon
life expectancy is different
than lifetime warranty.
Unless expressly stated what the life of the garment is (or how is that established) the term “lifetime warranty” is misleading.
Lifetime is lifetime.
Thermarest lifetime means YOUR lifetime. You die, no more warranty. However if you inherit a Thermarest probably they will still warranty the product if it fails.
But there are a few companies out there with the “lifetime warranty” statement that won’t back it up when it comes to a claim.
Lifetime warranty on a bike frame: I broke it after 7 years and got a new one (even if technically life expectancy on an aluminum frame is 5 years)
Surely a Gore-Tex garment won’t last 30, 20 or even just 10 years. If used frequently you are lucky to get 5 year out of it.
When buying a product with lifetime warranty I buy insurance that it WILL be replaced when it fails, not IF it fails.
I would press my point: lifetime remains lifetime in my book
Retailer or Manufacturer?
You don’t like what Gore Tex said but you do like what Marmot did.
Separate the retailer from the fabric manufacturer. Who do you feel took care of you? Yak Works didn’t. Oh, that’s right. They were gone. Vote with your dollars. If Gore Tex pisses you off don’t buy products made with their fabric and only shop at Marmot or wherever. Don’t shop at any retailer that might go under.
Good luck with that.
Did you contact Columbia?
I’ll bet they’d repair it for you if the zipper is defective. I know that TNF will do so, as I’ve had a zipper replaced under warranty in a fleece jacket.
Yak Works, Marmot, and Gore
are all manufacturers, not retailers. Gore makes Gore-Tex fabrics, Yak Works (made) and Marmot (makes) garments. It is not realistic to expect that a manufacturer producing garments using quality materials and methods will possibly not be around at some point in the future.
The Gore-Tex written warranty is fuzzy. I agree with the OP that they should have it in writing stating what the warranty means, even if to say it is upon their determination of the garment condition. I own a number of Gore-Tex garments, and also sell Gore-Tex products retail. This issue comes up with customers regularly. Most good manufacturers will state in writing that the “lifetime” is the useful life of the garment.
Based on the OP, it sounds to me as though the Marmot sales rep perhaps mis-represented what the Gore-Tex warranty was . However, Marmot has a good reputation for standing behind anything they manufacture, and in typical fashion took care of it.
North Face also has a very thorough description of what “lifetime” constitutes (also the useful life of the garment) and the fact that they take care of issues that are clearly beyond the scope also deserves kudos.
Gore is a good manufacturer. They just need to clarify their warranty in writing.
Manufacturer…
You are right about the retailer/manufacturer thing. I was referring to the manufacturer of the fabric. Like eVent, or any other WPB fabric others manufactuer products using it and those folks are often retailers. Marmot certainly is one.
I just think that folks need to spend their money with retailers who take good care of them, regardless of fabric warranty.
Pick a fabric that works for you and buy it from someone who supports you.
Gore Tex rant
Seems to me that your experience with Gore Tex lasting 30 years is a pretty good recommendation for the product.
The rest of your posting reminds me of a song that was popular about 30 years ago. I forget the title, but the words went “They only put in a nickle, but they want a ten-cent song”.
Follow-up with Gore Customer Service
– Last Updated: Nov-13-09 5:31 PM EST –
(Warning - another long append)
I received a personal phone call on 11/12/09 from W.L Gore Associates. It was the head of Gore's Consumer Outreach/Warranty Resolution for North America.
Our phone conversation was a long one, well over an hour, so I will try to net our discussion down as best I can.
An overview of the topics covered in the phone call:
- The history of W.L Gore Associates and Gore-tex itself (Gore makes many products, but only garments carry the Gore-tex brand).
- The history of the Gore-tex warranty and guarantee.
- The term "Life-time" when applied to a warranty.
- Clothing manufacturer's versus Gore's warranty.
- One of Gore's main concerns when it comes to customer satisfaction with Gore-tex.
- My personal experiences and expectations when I called into Gore Customer Service.
- Details of the Gore-tex Waterproof guarantee or warranty, and supporting documentation.
Now for the details.
- History of Gore-tex:
Why did the rep go into the history of Gore-tex? Because without it as a context one would not understand how they developed their warranty/guarantee.
- Warranty History:
Gore did not institute a warranty or waterproof guarantee on Gore-tex until late 1989. Why? When they brought Gore-tex to market in 1976 they had a product that worked (waterproof and breathable), but they still had not solved all the technical issues with making a fabric/laminate system that would last. These issues included: bonding the Gore-tex laminate to the fabric without delamination or failure; seam sealing; the durability of seam tape; and lastly, obtaining DOUs from their customers to manufacture Gore-tex garments to specific standards. Standards that would meet or exceed customer expectations for the fabric. Bottom line: Gore will not sell their product to a customer who will not agree to Gore's manufacturing standards and yes, they have lost some customers (garment manufacturers) over the years. The Waterproof guarantee went into effect in late 1989 is still enforce at Gore over 20 years later. The rep confirmed that Gore-tex garments make prior to 1990 (fall of 1989 to be exact) are not covered by Gore's guarantee.
- "Life-time" term:
Gore does not use the term "Life-time in regard to their warranty. The rep told me that initially he had believed that Gore had never used "Life-time". However, he did note a response to my posting on another board. In that discussion an individual indicated that they were in possession of several old Gore-tex garment hang tags marked with "Lifetime Limited Warranty". The rep said that he would like to spent some time researching the previous usage of "Life-time" in the Gore warranty even if only to improve his understanding of the warranty's history.
As some have suggested above, the rep indicated that "Life-time" is a very hard phrase to define and then wrap a guarantee around. Are you talking the life-time of the individual who made the purchase; the garment; or the fabric itself? The rep and I agreed that my case is just a bit outside of the bell curve. He had never seen usage like mine. For those who are interested, the rep never tried to suggest or define how many years anyone should expect a Gore-tex garment to last. More about usage under 'One of Gore's concerns' below.
- Clothing manufacturer's versus Gore's warranty:
The rep emphasized that there can be important differences between the manufacturer's warranty and Gore's Waterproof guarantee. As already mentioned Gore's guarantee has been in effect for over two decades. Gore is well aware of Marmot's "Life-time" warranty. Gore and Marmot have had a close business relationship over the years. Marmot was one of Gore's first two commercial customers back in 1976. Gore's waterproof guarantee usually works very well for the end user and they receive far more accolades from customers than complaints.
- One of Gore's main concerns when it comes to customer satisfaction with Gore-tex:
Maybe I should title this 'The Main Concern'? The rep did not use that phraseology, but he only singled out one customer service issue when it came to their warranty.
It is not the longevity of a Gore-tex garment or life expectancy. The rep used the formal term "Fitness for Use".
The place where Gore Customer Service sees problems and the potential for problems are at the point-of-sale. Did the retailer sell the right Gore-tex product to the customer?
I believe he used the well known phrase, "You don't take a knife to a gun fight".
Example One: one poster here cited a $100 Cabela's jacket. Gore is aware of that product. It is a nice garment and is great for around town use. It IS NOT intended for alpine ascents or peak bagging in the Adirondacks. It simply will not hold up, however Gore customer service must field calls when a customer complains that their Gore-tex jacket 'fell apart'. The rep said that customers can often be attracted to the Gore-tex brand, but purchase a garment based on style, color and cost, but regrettably not intended use.
Example Two: All Gore-tex drysuit owners can appreciate this one, particular if your suit has those highly desirable Gore-tex socks. One does not go running around the rocky shores of Maine or the approach to the launch site in just your drysuit socks. You need to wear protective over-boots. Yeah, that would seem to be common sense, but I have seen people do it. Then they wonder why their $900+ dry suit leaks.
This matter is important enough to Gore that it has put together a training program to educate their retailers on "Fitness for Use".
In summary the majority of Gore-tex customers are happy with their garments. If Gore sees problems they usually involve "Fitness for Use" issues.
- My Experiences and Expectations:
I have already documented the details of the experience I had in my initial contact with Gore, and the expectation that they would "do something positive" after my Marmot experience.
The head of Gore's Consumer Outreach/Warranty Resolution addressed my concerns as follows:
1) He accepted full responsibility in regard to my customer service experiences. He never made the discussion about me. It was about "How can we at Gore do better?".
2) He apologized for the delay in contacting me.
3) He apologized that my initial call to Gore Customer Service ever went any further that it has. "We should have handled your concerns then. It is my responsibility to make sure our people do that".
4) He agreed that current Gore documentation and their website does not adequately explain the details/limits of their guarantee to the end user or retailer. He will endeavor to correct that.
5) He clearly told me that I was under no obligation to post our discussion here. This gentlemen took more than an hour of his time to spend with me, so at the very least I can do is document the resolution here.
6) The rep generously offered me a replacement Gore-tex cycling jacket of my choice even though it is clearly outside the scope of their normal guarantee (made prior to 1990).
- Details of the Gore-tex Waterproof guarantee or warranty.
See the following post.
Gore Documentaton
– Last Updated: Nov-13-09 11:31 AM EST –
(Text copied from the email I received from Gore with their permission)
Hi,
Thank you for taking the time to chat with me this afternoon. Now that we have an accurate understanding of one another's positions on this issue (shewww), let's go to work and deal with the issue appropriately.
As promised, Here is a copy of the text contained in our Guaranteed To Keep You Dry® Promise, as you have pointed out, there is no mention of the date in which this pledge was implemented on either our site or the product literature, hopefully you will find the GORE-TEX® Fabric Innovation Timeline, also attached, a useful tool in "squaring" this issue away. As Discussed, 1976-1985 basically no warranty expressed or implied, 1985-1989 3 yr. Waterproof, 1990-Present below........
Our Guaranteed To Keep You Dry® Promise
If you are not completely satisfied with the waterproofness, windproofness, or breathability of our GORE-TEX® product then we will repair it, replace it, or refund your purchase price.
Realistic Expectations
As long as your GORE-TEX® product is not at the end of its useful life then it will be considered to be “under warranty”. Useful life means that the garment is not completely worn out or damaged / in need of repair.
*Please note that our current warranty only applies to GORE-TEX® Garments and Footwear manufactured during and after 1990. This was when our Guaranteed To Keep You Dry® promise was conceived and implemented. Products manufactured before this time had limited warranties due to the technologies available.
Kindest Regards
Consumer Outreach/Warranty Resolution
GORE-TEX® Products
800-GORE-TEX
gore-tex.com
Link to Gore-tex time line:
http://www.gore-tex.com/remote/Satellite/content/community/brand-heritage
That sounds more like my experience
When I called them about a problem caused by an error in their instructions for installing their sealed shift cables, they admitted the error and agreed to send me replacement parts that would allow me to complete the installation properly. What they actually did was to send me an entire cable set, which was much more than I asked for. I couldn’t have been happier with their service. They’re a class outfit.
Good job
That is what I wanted to see for response. It straightens things up.