@JohnFH how does the rib influence the performance of those padfles?
The rib changes the balance. When paddling it feels different then a GP, the loom is egg shaped, fits my hand better and I find it more efficient then a GP.
Aleutian style also tend be sized a little longer then a GP for the same person.
Others have said it reduces flutter. I noticed on the one I made, which is very similar to your first one pictured, that unless held at the right cant angle, it will slice through the water like holding your hand out a car window. It also flutters as if it doesn’t have enough dihedral, and I notice bubbles, almost as if its stirring a carbonated beverage. I roughly calculated the blade surface area around 85 to 92 sq inches if fully immersed.
@JohnFH, by the way, your paddles are aesthetically appealing - simple elegance. Mine is 96 inches long with 3 3/4 wide blades. The edges are about 1/8 inch and the ridge goes further to the tip. It’s balanced and symmetric, but it doesn’t seem to come close to the performance of my Euro.
In a study that was done of blade efficiency, Euro blades came in first Aleutian second and Greenland third. My side by side tests showed the same thing.
Thanks for the compliment
Thank for the reply.
In a study?
Yeah a study. Some science type people did hydrodynamic testing of different paddle types and published the results. I found the papers they published and read them.
I’ve seen a few guys compare the performance over a short distance. Not scientific, but close enough and similar results. Far from the last eord, but I was suprised how close they came in the short test.
The difference to me had less to do with speed. The Greenland has a learning curve. The cant is important, and at least initially, its easy to plane the way your hand move in the airstream out the window of a car driving on the highway. I also feft flutter as if the cant wasn’t at the right angle. However, the most distracting feature was how I could feel bubbles on the blade like I was stirring cabonated water. I never felt that with a paddle, and it didn’t serm to matter hoe fast I paddled.
Compared to the Kalliste, I can hold it loose grip foor thebinitisl stoke and it’ll center in my grip. Tnen I dont feel any sensation around the blades until I push maximum effort and the boat begins to get trapped. Thats where I feel the beginning of what I call cavitation.
I’m with sing on tools. My local woodshop bandsaws the blanks for me. I use a spokeshave to carve the loom. Then use an electric planer to bring the paddle blades to 90 % and an orbital sander to finish it.
[quote=“Jyak, post:29, topic:120834, full:true”]
I’ve seen a few guys compare the performance over a short distance. Not scientific, but close enough and similar results. Far from the last eord, but I was suprised how close they came in the short test. [/quote]
The tests I’ve seen in the past put GPs and Euro paddles about even in efficiency, but they didn’t test Aleut paddles. Wings were the most efficient by a significant amount.
Cant is very important and proper cant will eliminate flutter, assuming that the rest of your technique is good. One common issue is that paddlers making the transition from a Euro paddle to a GP fail to adjust their stroke mechanics appropriately.
With a Euro, you’re taught to reach well forward - around your ankles, plant the blade and apply maximum power at that point. You’re also taught that the blade should exit the water at your hip.
This technique does not work well with a GP. You cannot properly cant the blade if you reach too far forward and if you apply full power to the paddle immediately you will definitely drag a lot of air into the water around the blade. The result is a combination of flutter, a “scratchy” feel and sound (created by the air) and an overall weak, inefficient stroke.
With a GP, you should plant the paddle closer to mid-shin and build pressure on it gradually until the entire blade is submerged. This permits proper canting and eliminates trapping air. Continue to apply pressure well past your hip, then for a normal, cruising stroke, reduce the pressure and allow the blade to exit smoothly.
There’s a variation to this for maximum power. Instead of relaxing at the end of the stroke, keep the pressure on and the blade will ultimately exit the water with a pop, which positions the opposite blade to rapidly enter the water for the next stroke. The feeling is quite pronounced and you’ll know when you’re doing it correctly.
Regarding cant, you’ll know when you’ve got it right as the paddle will have much more “bite” on the water. You’ll also feel like the paddle is trying to angle under the boat, but you just need to resist that and continue the stroke rearward. Again, you’ll feel it when you get it right.
I think you had a case of “runaway fingers” for a moment and but I think I know what you meant (it happens to me sometimes, but I usually catch it).
Except in really difficult conditions, there’s no need to grip a GP firmly. Your lower hand basically just hooks the paddle for the pull and your upper hand pushes forward on the top side of the blade with the pads at the base of your fingers, canting the paddle forward effortlessly. Your thumbs should be relaxed. The entire process should feel very smooth and easy.
“Aeration” is the correct term for what you felt; cavitation only occurs with high-speed propellers. Adjusting your stroke mechanics should get rid of it.
Got it. I don’t think its a matter of over reaching because I use a higher cadence with a shorter arc stroke, without reaching for the catch which means the release happens earlier than usual; however, you describe the condition accurately.
Thank for correcting cavitation. I didn’t think that was correct but couldn’t think of another word. I plan to wait until I find someone who understands the Greenland Paddle so I can paddle side by side. If the learning curve enabled me to increase speed, it would be worth experimenting on my own. Ultimately, I’d buy a carbon Greenland Paddle to reduce the weight. The paddle I made isn’t uncomfortably heavy, but I can’t justify giving up a faster paddle in the low 20 oz range for one closer to 32 oz. I need all the help I can get at this stage of my life, especially with a bad shoulder.
I enjoyed making the paddle and intend to make several more. I still have five blanks bought last year for the purpose. They’re still arrow straight and too beautiful to put in a wall. This was the most enjoyable topic that I found on the forum. It was a pleasure interacting with everyone who shared knowledge.
The thumb fumble happens when I’m composing on my phone. When they update the programs, I have to get use to the auto correct. I found a few in this post, so I need to figure out how they happen and proof read better.
Thanks for the advice. I’ll try again this year.
Unfortunately, I have yet to see any of these where the actual forces are represented properly for the Canted stroke with a Greenland Paddle.
The Euro and the Aleutian paddle use basically the same stroke but the Greenland paddle does not . It can not be treated the same as the other two in the calculations.
These supposed findings are flawed from the start when the sought for conclusion rather than an actual finding is the goal. In order to do the actual comparison, these reported science type people would have to first understand the stroke involved
I would think that reported less joint strain with like distances would speak for itself. But then the paddles in question would both have to be used properly. {not always the case}
Go find the study yourself and draw your own conclusions.
I’m not arguing someone else’s work with you when you haven’t read it.
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Thank You JohnFH I would not consider refuting another’s work without reading it. I have been in this discussion many times before so I am just relating my own personal experience of what I have seen to be true. Even in a room full of engineers {science types} The discussion veers into the realm of treating paddles all the same for simplification of the calculations. {this surprises me since it would have never been allowed in any of my engineering classes} {in fact quite the opposite was demanded}
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May be helpful?
Thank You Buffalo-Alice
I have read this before and again altho wind tunnel test were done. The basis of the treatise is about correlating the “Drag Stroke” {not necessarily real world canted stroke and it’s forces imparted}
Sorry for the thread hijack…
Paddle power is an interesting topic. I hardly understand the Greenland stroke, but it seems logical that the ability of a paddle to power a boat really comes down to area of the blade and how many efficient strokes the paddler can make in a timed interval. The bigger the blade area, the harder it is on joints, but the faster you go. A paddle with less blade area is easier on joints and better over distances, and its more aerobic.
Like riding a multi-gear bike, changing the gearing (or using a paddle with less surface area) allows a higher cadence and more efficient aerobic use of your energy. How close a Greenland and a Euro are in terms of speed and power comes down to surface area.
In my experimentation, the Euro is a no brainer to use, but it took me 15 years to learn how to use is efficiently. I’m sure the Greenland and the Wing are no different. The Greenland paddle seems valued for the degree of control it offers and joint comfort. The fun is in learning. Like skegs, rudders or edging, go out and play. That’s what its about.
Nobody can tell you where your power or endurance range is, whether you’re a sprinter or endurance paddler, how long your paddle should be or how large your blades should be, or what’s the best boat.
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Your last paragraph wiped out 50 discussions!