epoxy duribility on GP and refinishing
I bought a used a two part GP that was made for a paddler going to the Greenland rolling competition. By being a two piece paddle, it was easier to fly to Greenland. I was told that it was used during Greenland competitions three different years.
Structurally, the paddle did hold up to the stress of the Greenland competition. Solid WRC 2 part paddles have a tendency to break at the carbon ferrel due to stress being concentrated there; There is a wide difference in flexibility between the WRC and the carbon ferrel. This one shows no cracking at the ferrel.
However, under the oil finish there is a coat of epoxy. The epoxy has fractured or crazed from the ferrel to about 1/2 way to the tips. I surmise that it is from bruising while leaning on the kayak for entry and from the stresses of many rolls. With my oil finished GP’s I see bruising in the same area. I’m mentioning this to point out that while a epoxy coat may toughen up the paddle surface slightly, it creates it’s own problems in the long run.
I am removing the epoxy and will recoat with a oil varnish blend.
Dave
Give it several weeks at least on water
Before you make a conclusion. It takes some time to begin to feel good and it can be uncomfortable/unusual at first. They require a somewhat different power curve on your part and that is not something that is easy to get fast even though it may have been well illustrated by Greyak’s (?) curves and associated discussions.
I’m new to it but over the past 3-4 months have gradually convinced myself that the sticks are much superior for me in most situations. But I was not sure at all at the beginning…
Buying or borrowing a good one that is sized close to your measurements from someone could give a good idea about what to expect and then you can customize to suit you.
I have not seen that on canoe paddle
shafts coated with epoxy, but if the shaft is subjected to a force strong enough to depress the wood underneath, then the epoxy is going to crack or craze. And the force on a shaft from entering and exiting certainly might be enough.
My WW canoe paddle shafts take a lot of punishment, and while some are spruce, and presumably soft, I haven’t had the cracking problem.
That will solve the problem
My feeling is that if you’re going to epoxy the paddle, you may as well glass it. Gabriel Romeu uses a VERY light fiberglass that only weighs .55 oz/yard (it looks like pantyhose material) and it’s completely invisible on the finished paddle. It adds substantially to the durability and reduces the likelihood of crack that can allow water in, but adds very little to the weight. However, it does make the paddle stiffer and like epoxy without glass, you still have to varnish over it, which adds considerably to the maintenance of the paddle.
I have used a similar glass material
but what I tried was disappointing in its lack of strength. One could use a lighter, non-glass cloth, but on an entire paddle, you are correct in noting it adds palpable weight. With my limited understanding of the use demands on a GP paddle, it seems a shame to glass the whole thing. Also, I have noticed on more than one of my paddles, that when wear goes through the epoxy and into the cloth, my hands start to crack because of microfibers being driven into my skin. Better to have a nice oiled wooden shaft.
?Is it possibly the case that the most protection is needed at the paddle tips and around the center of the loom, the latter because of stress against the boat when boarding, etc.? Perhaps one could glass (or Nylon) only the area around the loom. Of course one cannot use a shrink-down vinyl sleeve such as we use to protect carbon shafts on slalom paddles, but perhaps there is a way to seam some vinyl or leather or genuine imitation Naugahyde around the shaft.
Naugahyde on paddle shaft
Yeah, I had thought about using Naugahyde on the paddle shafts. But, after I thought about all the Naugas that are killed to make Naugahyde, I decided against this “solution”.
Dave
Stress on center of the loom?
I don't see why there should be any undue stress on the center of the loom. When entering the boat, I always place a blade on the deck, not the loom. I often enter the boat with it in shallow water. The buoyancy of the paddle set up as an outrigger is more than enough to allow for entry and it puts very little stress on the paddle. Speaking of which, if you're leaning hard enough on your paddle to seriously stress it when entering your boat, you need to work on your technique. The paddle should be used as a balance aid, not a crutch.
In the past I've used fiberglass and Dynel as reinforcements on paddle tips, but I don't any longer, as they really don't seem to help much. IMO, it's not worth the extra work required. Nowadays, I just coat the tips with thickened and tinted epoxy.
stress on center of loom
Hi Brian,
The paddle I’m refinishing is a well used solid WRC paddle with a carbon ferrel. The maker relayed to me that it is one of the few (of probably low production #) that survived breakage at the ferrel. He stated that the issue was differences in flexibility at the juncture of ferrel to shaft of loom.
He didn’t break them, so the reason for breakage is his guess and whatever feedback he received. On my part, I’m just speculating. Another guess of mine is that most were broken by using the paddle for entry support with one end on shore, dock, rock but not floating as you recommend. Takes a bit more practice to learn to balance against the flotation of the paddle while entering and exiting the kayak, but is much better for paddle survival, and should be practiced.
Dave
The answer is simple
Cedar is a very soft wood and it flexes in use. If you glue a hard, stiff ferrule to it (steel or carbon fiber), the ferrule won't flex with the wood and the edges of the ferrule where it meets the loom will compress the cedar at that point. Eventually, it will loosen and/or break there. If you want to put a ferrule in a GP, you either need to use a hardwood loom or reinforce the top and bottom of a cedar loom with hardwood to prevent it from crushing at the loom-ferrule junctions. The other alternative would be to manufacture a flexible ferrule, but that would be more difficult.
Another contributing factor is that ferrules are generally smaller in inner diameter that a typical GP loom. Reducing the size of the loom to fit the ferrule weakens it significantly, exacerbating the problem.
So, uh, would you trim, or stretch it?
Neither
Harder wood/laminations - or a yet to be identified more flexible loom material as Brian said are the simpler fixes.
Making a longer or shorter ferrule only moves the problem to a different spot. Putting more (length) wood inside then also is of no help.
Another option would be a hardwood, CF, or metal rod insert into the WRC running back into loom, or even to blade root, to stiffen/stabilize the WRC in the loom area - but what a PITA to drill out to accept. Would be easier if placing such an insert within a lamination - but if laminating, the different woods are already taking care of that (unless for some reason you wanted to completely hide the hardwood).
My preferred option would be larger custom shaped ferrules that could accept the full sized rounded rectangle or oval GP loom (or rounded trapezoid/egg shaped Aleut looms) - and still have round connecting sections so you could get them apart. I'm considering making my own, as besides the fit/strength improvement it would be really nice to have the right loom shape on the whole loom. Would have to price them accordingly though...
Up to now I have just avoided making 2 piece paddles, but I have persistent customers like BB who loves his Aleut too much to not have one to travel with and talked me into making him a 2 piece.
He'd have been OK with solid WRC, but for reasons Brian stated I wasn't and I laminated cedar and pine strips (pine/WRC/pine sandwich in loom area and we'll see how that holds up - as it's still not hardwood - but the layers and grain changes should reduce the way any compression damage at the end of the ferrule spreads a lot better than solid WRC). Longer loom on Aleut and less push/punch than GP stroke puts less stain on loom to. He has a tough two piece GP already and wanted a lighter mileage eating paddle - and it's certainly that.
Then he showed it to a friend and now I'm making another. It's lot of work (and wasted epoxy) using 13 strips (but fun to carve with all the built in reference lines which are handy with the spine on the Aleuts) - and this may be the last I make this way.
A center hardwood spine flanked by WRC would be simpler to layup and probably stronger and stiffer - but likely heavier. Might be able to made the hardwood strip pretty narrow though. So many possible configurations...
In between making those I split one of my solid WRC hybrid paddles and made it 2 piece for myself. The hybrid has euro width hand spacing and I use more with wing stroke with it so upper hand guides and doesn't push so there is little to no stress on loom area while paddling - and I think it will hold up for a long time*. If not it's no big deal on a personal (prototype) paddle when I can easily fix or carve another.
* - Plus I don't do a lot of aggressive fully extended strokes with the Aleuts or hybrids (even though they work great for this - I just don't find much need) and don't use them as crutches getting in and out - only floating outriggers, if that.
Several
years ago…I started my quest for the perfect take apart travel paddle.
I took a paddle that I had made which had a green ash center. Sawed it and Using a combination of hole saw and dremmel and differant sanding and gouging burs for a drill with an extention…I proceded to make a two piece greenland paddle.
thinking outside the box.
I put the ferrule on the inside with an apropiate amount of center protruding up into it to suficiently imbed the ferrule into the paddle and create a strong union.
This is a picture of that first paddle that I made in my quest.
http://www.geocities.com/roym52/Wood-take-apart-1.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/roym52/Wood-take-apart-3.jpg
not the best travel paddle for air travel , because they are still too long to fit into a suitcase. but they work fine for car travel and fit nicely into a trunk on even the smallest compact cars.
so I’ve since gone to 4 and 5 piece take aparts that travel smartly and safely tucked away in my suitcase.
http://www.geocities.com/roym52/5-P-Paddles-collage.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/roym52/Red-Green-1.jpg
good luck with Your quest, it’s not a inexpensive thing to embark upon 
Best Wishes
Roy
Always impressive Roy…
... well, except for the Wingtips (yikes man!). What's next, a neoprene top hat & PFD with tails?
Nice craftsmanship. Out of the box though? Isn't the point to get them into a smaller box? ;)
Got more ideas than I can fit in boxes, but there are far too many good reasons for me not to be making/selling paddles that complicated. I could not justify the time and extra materials to do them for myself, or find people who could afford what I'd have to charge for something like that!
You should offshore those to Thailand or Vietnam! *L*
YIKES
Go Offshore!!!..that thread that Flatpick-er put on here , just to let people know of a survival move by WS got over 300 posts…some of them very venting about everything etc…
No …I do like the Inuit did, and all the northern cultures have done for eons…while the cold wind of winter howls outside. And every thing freezes…I work on and think up things and then try to make them.
I’m sure the break away tip on the harpoon and in fact just about everything that had to do with hunting for survival, had it’s root in the thinking time while paddling to and from hunting and also while listening to the wind HOWL while huddled inside shelter.
I did however take the wingtip off of my red paddle and replace it with a more pleasant (to me) looking one.
left off the marks on the facing too.
http://www.geocities.com/roym52/WT-3.jpg
I now like the tip and it’s not so boring, to me,as the one that ends with just a straight line across the face. That tip design was determined by the materials that were availiable and how they had to be incorperated to add the bone tip…I am under no such restraints with the material I’m using. so have added what I consider to be a very elegant looking tip variation for visiability and abrasion resistance.
especially since I am in no way making a replica of anything from the past. (just another paddle)
(I also plan on making a tip that arcs like the quarter moon on a smaller version of this paddle)The red and the greenman paddle are both 86 1/4 inch paddles…I also plan to do a lay-up of possiably a 80 or an 83 inch paddle just for fun. Depends on how the weather goes…I enjoy paddling and rolling when the sun returns for the season.
Best Wishes
Roy
No doubt you love that look…
... or why else would you make them?
I certainly wasn't suggesting you do otherwise - and it's whimsical/different which is sort of cute. Certainly unique, and I do like the originality and variety. Just doesn't get it for me is all, and my comments meant nothing more. I was sort of hoping you'd bite on that neoprene top hat though...
Guess I'm simply just not old enough to feel a connection to wingtips - and certainly not as fun things! *L* Then there's the lack of Winter here, so building time has competition, notably from test paddling time, and so my approach is perhaps a bit more Spartan.
For those who thought I was serious, the outsourcing comment was an on purpose joke - specifically wake riding on Flatpick's recent post. Apologies to anyone who's now disappointed they won't be getting reasonably priced 4 piece GPs from Royco Asia Ltd. anytime soon. ;)
Hey Chris/Greyak
Sorry…I too was doing the joke on the thread…I must sound very vey serious when I post.
And You also know that I have an afiliation with Mark Rodgers and so would never think of starting up any competition…his 2 piece carbon paddle was my contribution to the paddling world.
I do a little swing dancing (and some ballroom dancing too) in the winter (my Wife helps teaching it locally and I go to help)…thus the wing tips.
my dancing shoes are all black wing tips…just seemed to go with paddling/dancing on the water…(not the saddle shoe look…that would be way over the top .
and it’s fun and not so stark and boring as a simple tip…and besides I was curious as to how it would look…
so do I have to tell a few Ole and Lena jokes now so people know that I very rarely am serious…I just don’t get into the Pissing wars that seem to flourish here sometimes…
Best Wishes
Roy (doing my best clown face)(but not as good as Kelly Blades)(and never as good as when Danny Mongo and Kelly get together)
What I would probably do…
...would be to start with 1x4 cedar and laminate 3/8" hardwood to it on both sides going roughly halfway down the blades. Once the paddle is shaped, the hardwood will only cover the top and bottom of the loom and shoulders, and gradually taper to nothing on the blades. I would guess that it would add ~4 ounces to the weight of the paddle, which is not a huge consideration if takedown capability is really needed.
One consideration if you use this method is that you will probably need to shape the paddle almost entirely with edged hand tools (or possibly a power planer), reserving sanding for the final finishing only. The soft cedar will sand much faster than the hardwood, so you need to exercise a lot of care that you sand everything evenly.
breakage at ferrule
The solid WRC paddle I’m refinishing has been “through the wars” without any signs of breakage. However, the paddle’s maker has stopped making 2 piece solid WRC paddles after having breakage problems with them for the reasons you mention. Mine might break on the next use- who knows, the potential is there. I’ll bring a spare when I use it.
Around the same time time last Fall that I bought the WRC 2 piece I was offered a nearly new Feathercraft 2 piece at a price too good to refuse. It is laminated WRC, with a carbon ferrule and ash splines in the edges and tips. There is a hardwood strip laminated down the center of the blades. It looks like ash to me. Their web site says the paddle has WRC, ash and alder in it and mentions ash being used on edge and tip protection, so the center strip must be the alder. The Feathercraft paddle is thinner and a bit heavier than the stripped solid WRC. I’ll wait until the WRC has finish on it before measuring weight. Any comparison would still be a guess because the Feathercraft paddle is a little longer.
Both paddles retain some flex in spite of the ferrule, a feature I favor. I may use both paddles for a while before deciding which is the “keeper” or I may keep both since the solid WRC is prone to breakage.
Dave