Icom
Get either an Icom or Standard Horizon radio. I got an Icom and it’s built like a tank. Dropped in a parking lot and it kept right on working. Rechargeable NiCads. FishHawk
There shouldn’t be any moisture
in a dry bag or it is not a dry bag.
there shouldn’t be
– Last Updated: Jan-01-08 12:58 PM EST –
I'm talking about the clear sleeves for vhf radios with clasp on one end.
I've used a couple of those clear VHF radio sleeves with slide clips and they weren't as dry as a tightly rolled up dry bag. A few years ago WestMarine had an aquarium display with a radio in one of those sleeves,,,and it was 1/2 full of water. I said to one of the sales staff "you might want to change that, not a good sales demo"
But lets say for a second you've got a 100% dry closure for a radio. If it is EVER opened near the water and returned to the closure it's trapped with moist air. Put that radio on the deck and in the sun and it'll drive that moisture into the electronics.
I'm just trying to reinforce the idea that if you have electronics in a kayak it should be submersible. Putting a radio into a sleeve that makes the radio hard to operate works against the purpose of the radio. If it is any kind of dry enclosure that requires opening to be used it's not an emergency communications device for on the water.
I'd much rather have a submersible radio I can safely secure under the fore-deck out of the elements or on my vest as needed than a vhf with limited function in a plastic enclosure.
If the radio has to be in an dry enclosure in a KAYAK it's not an emergency device.
maybe these are better than the ones I was using. The ones I had were like the camping tubes where you'd fold the end of the sleeve over and slide a rod/concentric slotted tube over the fold.
http://www.waterproofcases.net/waterproof-mobile-radio-cases-aquapac-water-proof-marine-radio-and-vhf-radio-cases.html
http://keepitdrycase.blogspot.com/2007/09/waterproof-hand-held-vhf-radios.html
There are many standards, developed both in the United States and Europe. The U.S. standard, defines a "waterproof machine" as one that can withstand a stream of water from a 1 inch nozzle at a rate of 65 gallons per minute for 5 minutes duration, from all directions without leaking. The standard doesn't cover immersion.
"waterproof" isn't good enough for kayak use.
Yep
That is the kind I use for my Icom. You can turn the knobs from outside the bag.
must be better than the ones I used
the ones I used were too stiff. Still, I had an Icom72 under the foredeck for a week forgotten, tumbled in the surf then left out of doors. Works fine two years later.
IPX7 and IPX8
From what I recall:
IPX7-remains functional after being submerged at 1 meter for 30 minutes
IPX8-remains functional after being submerged at 1.5 meters for 30 minutes
Icom M72 is IPX8–probably a few others by now, but I haven’t thoroughly researched what’s out there since purchasing the M72. Good luck and find a good one. Your life or someone else’s may depend on it.
After saltwater submersion,
consider putting your radio in warm water in the sink and let it soak for up to an hour or more. Pretty much what the M72 owner’s manual talks about on page three:
http://www.icomamerica.com/en/downloads/DownloadDetails.aspx?Document=101
I fought with the commercial bags…
…and couldn’t fit them in PFD pockets. Finally made my own drybag that works pretty well and fits in a PFD radio pocket.
http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2457547690068902019gohiCO
Still reccomend getting a submersible radio instead. This can be a little tricky as the radio in the picture above is IPX7 rated, but the battery pack is not rated submersible. In other words, the battery pack might fail if exposed to water. What good is that? Watch out you don’t get one of those–that’s why I put that radio in a bag. I will say that the pictured radio spent quite a bit of time underwater without the bag and survived and functioned just fine.
The M72 has the IPX8 rating but if you seperate the battery from the radio in wet conditions, you could damage both units, from what I recall. Oh, maybe it’s just the transceiver that could get damaged… On page 5 of the .pdf download there’s some info on this issue which could potentially be a very serious issue:
http://www.icomamerica.com/en/downloads/DownloadDetails.aspx?Document=101
Anyway, a couple of potentially important details to consider and keep in mind.
I have never had a problem using
my VHF radio while it is in it’s bag. I do not want to take chances with my radio and I will always keep it in a dry bag designed for a VHF radio. But to each his own, just MHO.
Grade 8 is better than that
It’s for continuous submersion, but it’s not a fixed standard. Here’s the details:
Grade 8
Protected against the effects of continuous immersion in water.
Ingress of water in quantities causing harmful effects shall not be possible when the enclosure is continuously immersed in water under conditions which shall be agreed between manufacturer and user but which are more severe than for numeral 7.
Test conditions for Grade 8: continuous immersion subject to agreement
Unless there is a relevant product standard, the test conditions are subject to agreement between manufacturer and user, but they shall be more severe than those prescribed in 14.2.7 and they shall take account of the condition that the enclosure will be continuously immersed in actual use.
Summary of test conditions for Grade 8:
Test means: Immersion tank. Water level: by agreement.
Water flow rate: not applicable.
Duration of test: by agreement.
Sorry, apparentIy I was recalling…
…Icom M72 info.
With IPX8, you need to know what the level of testing was that the manufactuer agreed to as it’s a bit of a moving target. See below:
“The moral of the story is to be totally conversant with IP ratings and remember that tests up to IPX6 are dynamic spray tests and tests for IPX7 and IPX8 are static immersion tests. The key test for product which has a ‘quoted’ IPX8 rating is simply to ask the manufacturer or supplier at what pressure and for what duration of time the test was carried out.”
From Icom M72 website info:
Submersible PLUS (IPX8)
The IC-M72 offers Icom’s best-ever protection against water intrusion. This radio has been tested to survive after being submersed in 1.5m (4.9ft) depth of water for 30 minutes.
normally I defer to you in all things
kayak-related, B.
All I can say in this instance is that my VHF takes 6 AA batteries, is submersible, and is comparable in virtually every other way I can think of to other VHF marine radios on the market (info from the Uniden website below). Sure you can buy smaller, but this was the standard size for years.
http://www.uniden.com/products/productdetail.cfm?product=ATLANTIS%20250G&filter=Handheld
Uniden Atlantis 250G
Handheld Two-Way VHF Marine Radio
JIS4/CFR46 Waterproof Level
1 Watt/5 Watt Switchable
NiMH and Alkaline Battery Capability
Instant Channel 16/9/Triple Watch
Backlit LCD Display
Backlit Keypad - Makes it easy to use in low-light conditions.
All N.O.A.A. Weather Channels with Weather Alert
Memory Channel Scan
Optional Speaker/Microphone
Flexible Rubber Antenna
Category: Handheld
NB: JIS4/CFR46 submersible level (but, yes, as a prudent mariner I back mine up with an Aquapac).
There is no IPX8 standard
As JMDEN correctly points out, there is no standard for IPX8 as there is for IPX7 or the lower IPX numbers. Without the description of the pressure and time used for the test, there is no way to know if two IPX8 rated devices have similar levels of “waterproofness” when immersed. For example, one might be rated to 100 meters for 12 hours and another 2 meters for 30 minutes. The Icom standard for IPX8 is really not that much beyond IPX7. It is also well to keep in mind that IPX7/8 are static immersion tests and devices that pass IPX7/8 may not pass the dynamic tests of say IPX6 where a stream of water at a given pressure is directed at the device. So it is a bit misleading to say a device that has an IPX7/8 rating is more “waterproof” than a device with an IPX6 rating. The contrary might be true.
JIS4/CFR46 is only for spray and splash
All “waterproof” is not created equal. From the Atlantis brochure: “JIS4 waterproof rated and designed to protect against spray and splash”
JIS4 specification requires “unit to withstand steady stream of water from a hose for 5 minutes without leakage”. Not intended for submergence."
In other words, it is really only “water resistant”. Maybe that’s waterproof enough for you, but it is not really comparable to the level of protection offered by other handhelds.
Only JIS-7/IPX7 & IPX8 are “Submersible” ratings (and check exactly what that means for each unit).
Keep your Atlantis in that Aquapac - it probably needs it for kayak use. My IPX8 rated M72 doesn’t.
thus the Aquapac
(and a desecant pack, pirated from something that came in the mail, to stave off humidity–not a problem, but “prudent mariners” 'n all …)
If you must use a bag…
…the desiccant pack is a good idea. Choice of radio is a personal thing, but IMO, there are simply too many disadvantages to non-submersible radios in dry bags for me to consider going that route.
I’m disappointed…
…in Icom’s interpretation of IPX8. In particular, their idea of “continuous immersion” is pretty lame. I’ve seen other IPX8-rated devices that are rated for indefinite time periods. Still, as you say, Icom’s IPX8 is still somewhat more stringent than IPX7. The difference is not great enough that I would choose an M72 over an M88 strictly for that reason. It does offer other compelling features.
we buy what we can afford and make do
There’s not much of a price difference
JIS/IPX7-rated submersible radios are available for under $150. It wouldn’t make economic sense to go out and buy one now that you have a radio, but for first-time buyers, the extra $20-$40 is money well spent.
please send check
I paid $60-70 for my Uniden