Harm from sitting on btm of Kayak?

Jackson sweet cheeks
http://www.jacksonkayak.com/store/product.cfm?product=sweetcheeks



This works really well when sitting right on the hull.



Paul

WW boaters…






…seem to be far more likely to customize the outfitting than the touring/sea kayak crowd.

Injury
God knows why you’d buy a kayak that was unstable for you when test paddled.



That said, NSI makes a 1/4 in thick, dual density, self adhesive pad that will improve creature comfort.



The injury potential is huge. You may chafe your armpits on the cockpit rim.

Dear Mr Wilson

– Last Updated: Oct-25-08 8:44 PM EST –

In regards to your question about buying an unstable kayak:

I told the salesman that I was interested in learning to roll. He told me that an unstable kayak like this would make it much easier to learn to roll since the first half of the roll would be much eaiser.

Now that I am an intermediate paddler, I no longer need this added instability to help me with the first part of the roll. I find I can do the first half of the roll without any problem. I just need to find something to help with the 2nd half.

If I want to progress further I thought I should remove this "crutch" that artifically helps me do that first half of the roll. I imagine really advanced paddlers have all kind of exotic manuvers to execute that first part of the roll. However, I have not seen any information specifically on this topic in my instruction books or videos. If you have any information on advanced techniques for initiating the roll I would enjoy hearing them.

Thanks for you input :)

Mark

help me with the first part of the roll
You have had difficulty capsizing? Or do you mean set-up and/or getting under the boat?


About that coaming
FYI, a coaming that comes out a little too low to make getting the skirt on easy isn’t a remarkable rarity. That seems to be something that happens with a variety of manyfacturers from time to time.



However, that could be a real pain if you start messing around in surf. You’ll want a skirt with a pretty decent hold as well as the ability to slap it on quickly. You may want to try to heat the coaming, carefully, and move the lip up just a bit. wilsoj2 (above) has done that on the Romany.

I paddled a 19" wide cedar strip kayak
for a few years without a seat and it was just fine. I duplicated the hull of my SOF kayak into a cedar strip kayak and the strip kayak turned out to be less stable because of the higher center of gravity. With the SOF my center of gravity was almost 1" lower which made a big difference in the stability in this narrow of a kayak. What I found was that if I didn’t use any seat at all the kayak was much more stable and also if I had my legs laying flat on the hull, using a masik for my knee braces I gained even more stability. Hip pads helped a lot when paddling rough conditions. It’s amazing how little changes can make such a big difference when paddling a tippy kayak. I’ll post a link to some pictures of the cockpit in this strip kayak to give you an idea of what I did. Hope this helps.



http://outdoors.webshots.com/album/477236240nJEmgt?start=48

I think your butt will tell you how much
foam to add for long term comfort. I converted a whitewater c-1 to be a kayak, and I installed a foam backrest, a backband, and side bolsters to keep my hips located. I found that 1/4 inch minicell foam was adequate to pad the bottom of the boat. Because the composite hull layup was thin, I added two layers of 6 oz Kevlar to the inside of the boat, to spread the effect of running up on rocks with my butt resting on the boat bottom.



Another reason for a little foam on the bottom is warmth. The bottom of the boat can get real cold.

The instability of the kayak
helps with the capsize.



Please note the smiley symbol “:)” at the end of the post. It was just a joke in response to the comment indicating that I must be really stupid to have purchased a kayak I thought was too unstable.



Mark

I mostly agree with biomechanics
I can’t help but wonder about your situation. I’m guessing there may be physical limitations that exist pertaining to figuring out a roll, but I very well could be misinterpretting? In any case, laying on the back deck seems to help a lot of folks with the last half of the roll. (Really, with a life vest on, the first half is nearly done by the time you set up. I’ve always considered my basic roll and was taught it as a single fluid motion.) This is made more difficult obviously by sitting lower in the kayak. Setting up in general would be more difficult sitting lower under the coaming if flexibility is any sort of issue (again, I don’t know for sure that flexibility is an issue, just a thought?). I’m not sure a Force Series kayak would be considered unstable to an intermediate paddler, and I’m not sure a person can be considered intermediate without the by far-and-away most reliable and reassuring form of self rescue, the roll. Any other type of self rescue also seems to require greater strength, coordination, and flexibility. Please don’t take any of this as any sort of judgement. I don’t know you. You’re a fellow paddler and I’m glad you’re out there enjoying yourself regardless. I’m just trying to examine this the way I would if I were talking face-to-face to a friend. I think biomechanics makes a good point with a boat being designed and a seat being placed with certain handling characteristics along with intended weight loads in mind. If that’s not the right boat for you, find a different design if you can unless modifying that one is your only option, or you’ve tried, and failed, to find anything else that you like as well given the modifications. I also, based upon what little is here, get the impression that you consider that boat tippy, even considering yourself an intermediate. Then I’ll add my personal rolling experience. As a beginner, I had more confidence rolling a more stable boat. Now mind you, I didn’t have physical limitations that didn’t allow me to comfortably put my paddle above the water while upside down, or that required me to lay back on the deck to generate enough torque to roll the boat up, etc. There were a couple things. If I felt unstable in the boat (and as a beginner, it wasn’t automatic always having the leading paddle edge high with any consistency when needing an impromptu brace) then when I first came up from the roll, I felt even more unstable. If I came up too hard or not hard enough, I might not succeed with my stabilizing brace, and go right back over for a second try. Also, with a more stable boat, the secondary stability of the boat holds you up if you were a little soft, or keeps you from going back over if you were a little hard, even if you mess up with your stabilizing brace (more forgiving). In addition, it is easier to feel where you’re at in the progression of the roll, as you will feel yourself go over that secondary stability and know by feel where you’re at on the upright side of things. If you have problems generating the torque to get yourself upright at all, and it’s due to physical limitations vs just not getting the knack of it yet, I’d say that stability might get in the way, and you’ll probably have to figure out a sculling roll of some sort if you really want to roll. Of course there’s all kinds of factors here that I may not be aware of, but on the surface my initial instinct would be trading to a hull design that was designed with your size and weight and desired stability characteristics in mind. There is a lot to the handling characteristics of what’s considered a less stable hull, and ease of rolling doesn’t even factor in for me. It’s not really a case of trading stability for ease of rolling. In any case, this isn’t what you were asking about in your original post. Reading through everything, I just couldn’t help wondering about the whole process. I really do hope that whatever you do it’s a perfectly reasonable option for you and that you enjoy your time out on the water as much as possible. Please just ignore it if it isn’t helpful, as I’m certainly trying hard not to offend anyone.

It was a joke…

– Last Updated: Oct-27-08 1:33 PM EST –

I went back up in this thread, and from what I can see all that is going on is that mjamja is looking for a little more thigh room. If anyone has tried sitting in a Force 3 they'd get it - it's a tight fit for an average sized guy. If the OP'er said anywhere that they found the boat too tippy I can't find it.

This has turned into a funny thread though.

(And g2d also has a good point about needing some foam to protect against cold butt. I really feel that 30-odd degree water thru a boat unless I am paddling pretty hard, even in a drysuit.)

Oh, by the way, with the rolling…
I would suggest working on your high brace. Once you are completely confident in your high brace, you have your second half. Do it a lot and find your limits. Let your body with life vest and paddle hit the water and significantly slow your downward momentum before putting any pressure on the paddle and initiating any hip flick. When your body hits the water, let your body from your hip to your shoulder on the upwards side curve upwards towards the surface. When you intiate your hip flick and put pressure on the paddle, simultaneously, your head, shoulders and the curve between your hip and shoulders will switch to the opposite side - towards the water. This allows your entire torso to aid in that hip flick, and also helps to make sure your head and shoulders are the last things you bring back up over the center of your boat. Again, make sure you stay relaxed and let your life-vested body and relaxed hold on your paddle hitting the water slow your momentum and extend that sideways curve from hip to shoulder on the upwards side of your body (towards the surface) as much as possible. Then boom, you bend that body and flick that hip and switch the angle of your shoulders and lay your head towards the downward shoulder all at once. This is easy to practice and envision just sitting in a chair.

If you can do this, you can then work on a balanced sculling brace, which will teach you how to scull your way to the surface. You don’t have to be able to do a sustained balanced brace. If you can scull your way to the surface, and you can perform a high brace after letting your body hit the water, you’ll be able to figure out the transition from one to the other, and you will be rolling. How well you can peform the hip flick (or high brace) part will determine how far you will have to be able to scull yourself up, and vice versa.



That’s my suggestion. Good luck!!

Stop the presses! Buy very thin foam
Mark, you can buy both minicell and neoprene in thicknesses less than 1/4 inch. I’ve used very thin foam to line the fiberglass thigh braces of my Explorer LV, which came with NO padding there whatsoever.



I didn’t need the padding to take up room (because I had already raised the seat 1/2 inch which took care of that problem), but to make my knees feel more comfortable. Unlined fiberglass irritates my skin (which might happen to your thighs and butt…something to think about). It also kept my kneecaps from pressing on the underside of the deck there.



I know that one piece of foam I looked at was 3/16", and I’m pretty sure the stuff I used for the thigh braces was 1/8" thick. If you can’t get the really thin minicell foam, try wetsuit neoprene instead (1mm or 2mm, and you’ll want the kind that has nylon fabric protecting the side you’ll sit on). Just glue it in; I used Barge Cement but Aquaseal and other similar glues should work, too. I actually ended up putting some very thin wetsuit neoprene over the very thin minicell on those thigh braces, because my sweaty legs would slip a lot when bracing or rolling on hot days. The fabric-faced neoprene took care of that problem perfectly.

That primarily because they need…
…a very close fit for control in rough water. That kind of fit would become very uncomfortable in a touring boat.

how did you remove the seat??
wasnt it bolted on??

To remove it
I just unscrewed the nuts on the bolts then pulled the bolts and finally bent the sides (hangers) enough inward to clear the ledge on the deck to which they had been bolted. Entire seat then just lifted out with the backband attached.



I have temporary foam plugs and duct tape sealing the holes for now. Will eventually plug them with epoxy or maybe epoxy and a wooden plug when I am sure I do not want to put the seat back in.



Mark