Well said!
Your response is very accurate. And yes, a high angle stroke is certainly more efficient, particularly for those wanting a little bit of speed.
Joe
Think of it this way…
a proper high angle stroke with a good exit is alot like when on the road bike and spinning in circles…it just works better.
And yes you are right that cycling and paddling do have plenty in common.
Just got back from a wicked road bike myself about 15 minutes ago…was awesome!
Cheers…Joe O’
Understood
Think of a low angle stroke as a big gear on a slight downhill.
You don’t pedal the same way all the time do ya?
not efficient
that low angle stroke is just not as efficient…sorry…high angle is better if you want to efficiently cruise along.
For those who prefer a low angle stroke though, nothing wrong with that…you just won’t get there as fast.
Cheers…
Now Now
– Last Updated: Apr-25-06 5:14 PM EST –
Getting out of the saddle on the bike isn't as efficient as staying in the saddle, but you get to work a different set of muscles and relax some others. That makes you MORE efficient overall.
I think it's smart to switch body positions and cadences on the bike and in the boat.
Don't you ever get out of the saddle or mash a bigger gear?
could be as fast
I would disagree with the statement that one would not “get there as fast” using a low angle. In light of the old adage, “there are no fast carriages, only fast horses”, a big “horse” using a low angle stroke could go fast.
They would, however, be unnessarily tired at the end!
I am of the notion that good kayakers are inherently lazy. I know I am (even in my kayak racing days). Read that as, I do not want to work harder than I have to.
So, how about this example instead of an opinion. This comes from a forward stroke clinic I teach…
Hold the paddle in extreme extension, ie, the tip of one blade. Check to make sure your hands are your normal distance apart. Next, place the paddle out to the side of the boat (blade buried normally, offside hand your normal height; the shaft is therfore low angle). Try a forward stroke. Try it front to back, back to front.
Observe the effect on the boat.
Next, place the paddle shaft next to the boat,ie, vertical, and try a stroke front to back, back to front.
Observe the effect on the boat.
Which one produces a lot of yaw, which one does not?
This approach leaves opinion behind, it is discovery of cause and effect (aka physics).
Now ask yourself, when going forward, how much of your effort do you want to give up to turning the boat?
Certainly there is more than this; for example, too long of a paddle will put a paddlers’ upper hand above shoulder height. This, while still efficient for the paddle, is biomechanically ineffeficient. Think about pushing or leaning into something heavy- don’t you instinctually align your hand and elbow with your shoulder? Less work, right? Why have a paddle length that doesn’t allow this to happen?
BTW, I strongly disagree with the metaphor of gears on a bicycle. The only valid analogy there is length of paddle. Longer paddle, stiffer gear. Shorter paddle, more “spin”. Lowering the shaft angle, using the bike idea, is like a seat too low and no cleats. Fun, yes, efficient, never.
When the wind blows hard, I never lower my shaft angle (of the paddle, that is). That is when I focus most on efficiency.
And as a parting shot, “Falcon” has never been in front of me. At least not for long!
karlo
great to use physics
– Last Updated: Apr-26-06 10:05 AM EST –
Nice to talk physics. Actually the most efficient stroke would be a vertical paddle in both dimensions, vertical fore and aft, as well as sideways from boat. Folks make a mistake reaching too far forwards as well as backwards. Regards your conclusion that low angle is less yaw, the logic is not there. Not personal, just I think you are observing some things that physics would not back up.
Is it possible you are getting some good results with lower angle paddle because you do some other things well? The vertical paddle is only one big factor, the others being incorporation of multiple muscle groups, using the leverage of the fulcrum of the paddle, pushing rather than pulling, etc.
You can experiment and experience this yourself. Take a GPS and head out on a calm day. Do 3 mph steadily. Make your stroke more vertical and more compact, i.e., don't reach too far forward and take your hand out ahead of your hip for a really compact stroke. With the same effort you can go at least .5 mph faster and it is markedly less effort.
You can observe this another way, by going your top end speed and then vertical and compact and you maximum top end will go up too! Pretty dramatic stuff here, benefits for everyone.
It is true that these are only "home base" results. That is, we all have different styles, physical strengths and limits, different bodies boat and paddles to adapt to.
I am a good example, way strong in the legs totally puny uppper body. Becoming more efficient has been a life saver for me, otherwise I have a quite difficult time even keeping up. Now, I feel strong all day, godsend for me.
High vs. Low Angle
I do not think the low angle is dead as a paddling technique but it is inefficient and can cause the kayak to turn if not done properly.
If you divide the stroke into three components the 1st third, the 2nd third, and the last third and remember one of Newton’s Laws of Motion that every every action has an equal and opposit reaction you will understand what I mean.
Assuming the paddle enters the water on the paddler’s left side and we divide 3 parts of the stroke per a watch face:
1st Third 12 to 10: the paddle enters the water in front of the paddler, at 12 o’clock and the paddle arcs out from the kayak and to the left to 10 o’clock, pushing water to the left causing the bow of the kayak to move to the right with little water being pushed backward.
2nd Third 10 to 8: the paddle is now moving from 10 o’clock to 8 o’clock pushing water in a somewhat backward direction due to the slight arc, causing little or no movement of the bow to the right and pushing the kayak forward.
Last Third 8 to 6: the paddle is now moving from 8 o’clock in an arc toward the kayak and to the right to 6 o’clock causing the bow to move to the left as water is now being pushed to the right and not really backwards…
In a perfect world the last third will compensate for the 1st third and keep the kayak on line. However, during the 1st and last thirds of the stroke you are not really pushing water backwards and moving the kayak forward. The only real backward motion is during the 2nd third of the stroke.
In a high angle stroke the paddle is pushing water backwards for possibly 90% of the time moving the kayak forward. It is only during the catch and feather phases that the paddle is not realling pushing against the water. The greater time spent pushing water backwards moves the kayak forward through the water with more power and thus speed. If done properly, there is very minimal movement of the bow, and what movement that might occur is balanced out when the paddle moves to the opposit side.
accurate in many ways
I agree mostly. A compact stroke will mitigate loss of efficiency with any angle stroke, as you say, more enegy spent moving forward.
Not really saying low angle is dead, that is way severe. Really my only point is to open a few minds to possibiiity that a mid angle stroke is way possible for many of us taught to buy too long a paddle, thus blocking relaxed mid angle style.
If your body, boat, and paddle block you, the advantages of verticality, both in the physics of the push against the water, and the ability to utilize more muscles in a powerful way, will not be of much help. That is what Jed was reminding I think. But if you can, this change in style may reap benefits, worth experimenting with imo.
Evan
whoa there!
Yikes, where did I go wrong? I never, never said or implied that the “low angle produces less yaw”, in fact, just the opposite!
I reread my post several times to see where I went wrong, and I wouldn’t change a thing.
Back to physics- as opposed to opining in a warm room, my proposed exercise is emperic. The results are repeatable, testable, and inarguable.
Lower shaft angle produces more yaw (hint- what is a sweep stroke?). End of story.
Body mechanics is a linked issue, to be sure. It is possible,as I implied, to have an efficient paddle angle, but innefficient biomechanics. Paddle shaft length can be an issue there. Example- in the world of sprint kayaking (BTW, I coach a junior development flatwater program), the big horses use what they think are long paddles. They justify those long paddles becuase they are extremely strong, use boats with very low resistance, and race short distances. What is considered a long paddle? 218-222cm!
This is pertinent to the topic, as I strongly believe that the “low angle, long paddle, high angle, short paddle” dogma is part of the problem. Use a long paddle, and you will prove to yourself that the “high angle” method is too much work. That paddle has too much load (stiff gear), and more importantly, forces the upper hand too high for good biomechanical efficiency. Use a paddle of appropriate length for a high angle stroke, and you can still do sweep strokes, low angle forward strokes…ie, one is not limited.
Where did the idea come about that one needs a long paddle for a low stroke? Went whitewater paddling the other day, and noticed that my 198cm paddle with my 26in wide boat did not inhibit any low strokes!
OK, sorry for that last bit, anecdotal evidence always has limitations…
how about more physics!
SEA KAYAKER mag lists the Nordkapp LV as developing 3.5 pounds of resistance at 4kn. Choose a paddle. This is your lever to move that boat- to simulate it, put 3.5lb hanging on the middle of the paddle blade; it is also the end of the action arm of said lever. The lever arm is determined by your hand spacing, with the lower (water-side) hand becoming a fulcrum, the upper hand developing force. The equation would look like this-
lever arm/action arm=force on blade/force on hand
Agreeing on the 3.5lb for force on blade, and that we rarely change our hand spacing,leaving the lever arm the same, the amount we feel or need to exert at the upper hand will decrease with a shorter paddle. This, to produce the same force on the blade to drive the boat.
Hmm, could be that the worst thing about a low angle stroke is thinking that one needs a long paddle!
karl
Adjustable length paddle allows both.
I find it pleasant to be able to switch back and forth between 215cm for high angle and 230cm for low angle for a change of pace or to use muscles a little differently without having to change paddles. So far, I haven’t found that I prefer to use either high or low stroke all the time.
I have a used 218cm carbon signature Onno Full Tour paddle on the way - it should arrive tomorrow and I’m hoping that it won’t be to long for low angle paddling (I didn’t consult Patrick for proper sizing of his paddles for me, my boats and my paddling style before ordering the used paddle). I’m expecting this to become my primary paddle because of it’s lightness and I guess I’ll paddle at whatever angle is optimum for that paddle in my boats whether it be high, low or medium angle.
I have discovered that it’s definately tiring for me to try to sustain high angle paddling with a 230cm paddle because it’s too darn long to be used that way. 230cm, however, is just right for low angle paddling in my boats.
Well…
Come on up to BC…bring your road bike…and bring your kayak…we’ll have a couple of races. We’ll see who wins. 
And don’t take offence…I mean this in just a friendly way. Not being confrontational. about it. I’ve raced bikes and I’ve raced alot of kayaks and canoes…it’s all good!
Cheers…Joe O’
In the end
the best athlete is in front, and that tends to piss people off. Good day.
Yeah
"He may have beat me to the finish but my stroke is much prettier than his."
You Will Like It!
I have been using an Onno full tour since just before Christmas and really like it. I have a 215 and am begining to think about getting a second one at 210.
Mark
A very good discussion, thanks
I had a very good paddle & workout at Stone Mt. lake, GA, this PM, & it wasn’t just the good weather.
I paddled my usual 4 mi. up & back trip. I know that the following does not prove anything, but a set a new record time for me. I paddled without worrying about such a high angle stroke that I used to try for. On an unrelated matter I have found that I can learn to paddle with my feathered paddle and release my right hand while paddling on the left side which caused me no carpel tunnel symptioms for the first time in months.