Good Morning, John
Just got in from a bike ride. Ken and Nelson, my kayak-biker buddies, were both there this morning. I would really like to join in on some roll sessions. I’m sure Ken and Nelson would, too. You and Ken have something in common… the quest for the hand roll. Ken flooded his boat the other week at the pool and was impressing folks with his hand roll… they didn’t realize his boat was flooded. Ken makes a pretty mean Greenland paddle, too. Nelson is working this winter on his offside roll. I’ve been pretty focused on getting 100% reliable… snappy or slow.
By all means, let’s get together and have some fun.
Tall thin women are the best rollers
From a physics stand point they have the advantage of needing minimal rotational force to roll the boat, from a physical stand point they usually are able to pay attention to the technique and not try to muscle it, also women who have dance or gymnastics experience learn to roll very easily. Old fat guys with beer guts have the hardest time learning the screw roll.
Two sessions for c-1, very little help.
That was in the early 70s.
One session for kayak, in 1990, no assistance.
Getting the first combat roll was a lot harder.
AND, if your roll goes bad, it may take many more attempts to fix it. I spent $200 for individual instruction to fix my c-1 roll, and while both the instructor and I knew what was going wrong, I couldn’t roll on the lake.
Then we went to the Nantahala and just paddled. He foxed me into a maneuver that flipped me, and I rolled up perfectly without a thought.
My boring history
– Last Updated: Jan-27-08 1:21 PM EST –
I bought a Necky Jive to learn to roll and to learn to surf a decked boat. I signed up for a roll class so I took the boat down to the calmest beach in San Diego to do some wet exists and get a feel for the boat and skirt before the class. Some small waves were coming in and my son was with me on his wave ski and I could not resist surfing some of the waves, eventually I pearled and got flipped upside down on the biggest wave and ended pinned to the back deck in shallow water, I used my paddle off the bottom to roll up. The next wave I did the same thing. Later I lost my paddle and was pinned on the back deck, I used my hands to dog paddle and sweep to hand roll up. (Think intuitive I'm drowning I need air roll.)
Went to a roll class .... rolled the first night ....several times with instructor. Went back to the surf zone and got trashed and had to wet exit. Went to a pool practice and could not roll reliably on my own. Took a second pool class, rolled several times. Went back to the surfzone ... rolled sometimes .... got clobbered a lot.
Bought "The Kayak Roll Video" to figure out what I was doing wrong. Went back to pool practice. The Kayak Roll paradigm killed my roll. Depression.... another roll practice .... roll was getting uglier.....
Bought EJs rolling and bracing video .... went back to the calm beach and rolled about 15 times on my own. Practiced in waves.
Can roll reliably now in my whitewater boat. Surfkayak is harder sometimes, wavemaster waveski can be really hard especially in flat water, easier to use the wave for force to come up.
Lessons learned.....
A pool roll is not really rolling.
Not all types of rolls work for all body types.
The forward screw roll does not work well for me.
A formula of how you have to roll (as in The kayak roll) does not work for everyone.
Not all rolls work for unusual hull shapes (surf kayaks, waveskis, sit on tops)
My suggestions if you are having trouble.
1. Buy Ejs rolling and bracing video
2. Find a good teacher (I learned from Greg Knight, Jeff Laxier and the EJ video) I should probably take more classes to refine my technique)
3. Try several different kind of rolls.
4. Practice where you will be kayaking not just in a pool.
Good points Sing
I would like to add to this statement…
“Fact is that folks have different learning styles and different physical skills and body awareness. It takes some longer and some less so.” It is up to the educator to adapt their teaching style to the students’ learning styles. Which means being aware of different learning styles AND different strengths (Intelligences according to Howard Gardner); as well as different teaching methodologies.
That is the difference between someone who knows how to teach and knows who to teach rolling, versus someone who thinks knowing how to roll is enough.
I ‘learned’ how to roll
in about 3 or 4 two hour sessions. Meaning, at various times I could roll my kayak, but certainly no where near 100%. I stayed like that for a couple of years ‘working’ on my own. Then I took a class and 15 minutes later I could actually roll the kayak reliably and I learned how to diagnose problems with how I rolled. From then on when I worked on my roll I was actually improving it instead of just repeating the same problems.
Difficulty learning to roll is generally the instructor’s deficiencies not the students.
different learning styles and skills
"Fact is that folks have different learning styles and different physical skills and body awareness. It takes some longer and some less so."
Thank you paddlemore!
It took me a long time and intersecting with the right coach. Once I ‘got’ my roll I had 100 within a month including a couple of combat rolls in surf and conditions.
I think positive reinforcement is best. Nothing succeeds like success.
I’m embarrassed…
To speak up in this skilled and learned group.My boat is an OT Castaway, 12’ 9" long, 25" beam and a high seatback that prevents any layback on the rear deck. I’ve got a cheap coated nylon skirt with suspenders. A low mid-range aluminum shaft paddle with asymetrical, cupped blades.
I looked through a bunch of books on the subject, and read the threads here on P-net. I had a hard time envisioning rolling, the dynamics of “inverted” gravity and being on the wrong side of the water-air interface. I hung on the bow of my friends boats and practiced tipping my boat over…never really past 90 degrees. I memorized the tips and rules: Hip Snap, Don’t lift your Head, etc. etc. One day it seemed like a lightbulb went on in my brain. “Oh, I think I get it.”
Brought my son and a friend to a local lake, and “got ready”.Float bags, check. Facemask, check. Several minutes of “deep breathing to oxygenate myself”, check. Check, Check, Check. Pretty soon I began to feel foolish, even though my friend and my son were looking on with patient concerned looks, as if I were about to attempt some truly heroic and death-defying feat.
So, I “set up”, (Check, Check, Check) and went over. Missed the first try and wet exited. Got back in and after another lengthy Check, Check, Check preparation went over again and…
I was upright, and water was cascading off me and the boat. My jaw was hanging open I was so surprised.
Since then I can roll maybe 50% of the time, and don’t have a “combat” roll. Don’t need the facemask anymore, though.
Oddly, since I rolled I think I can give advice to those that can’t. It’s just that it is such cool fun I want to share it.
My advice is: take your time, keep trying.
Jeff
Look at the time I took
– Last Updated: Jan-27-08 1:38 PM EST –
You don't have anything to feel badly about. You're staying at it and got a "not easy" boat up.
you got that right
Someone on this board once said, get the first one and then do 1000 in two months. Maybe not 1000, but a heck of a lot. One of the things, perhaps even the key indicator, that distinguishes good paddlers from folks for whom paddling is primarily a social exercise is practicing versus talking. When I’m in a group, I’m using playing around with boat control strokes and rolling, and also talking. Most folks are just talking.
Well said sing
That would be me
And I’ve also said that great instructors have no pre-defined model. Rather that have a huge bag of tricks that they pull from after listening, and watching. Those instructors will have most people rolling in a session.
I find it amusing the threads of this roll or that roll blah blah, rather than understanding the overall concept and employing what “works” within safe parameters.
Once a student gets a roll, it’s a case of hard wiring the nervous system via repetition.
Anyone here who is struggling will absolutely have a roll for life if they do 1000 in the next month or two.
no kidding
“The Kayak Roll” video
worked well for me. I first learned a C-to-C as shown in “Grace Under Pressure”, but couldn’t transfer it to my offside. I used “the Kayak Roll” to learn a sweep on my offside, which then became my stronger side.
took
me three sessions—the third session I changed boats to one with a low deck so I could lay back and it was alot easier—to this day I don’t think I could do a roll in my old R-5 Riverrunner. Boat was a POS. I’ll tell you a story of once I saw a guy all decked out in ww gear—helmet, pfd,good paddle etc but in a short stubby rec boat—old town otter I think—he was trying to roll in the local lake and couldn’t quite make it(I’m sure that most people here would have trouble rolling the old town) so I offered him my T-170 WS to try and showed him how to hold the paddle for an extended or Pawletta roll—he rolled up beautifully the first, second and third tries—the only problem was his boat. I told him if he wanted to paddle ww then he should spend a little more money on a ww boat—never saw him again so I don’t know what happened.
ps I’m still learning
I’m of the opinion that although some, if not many of us have good rolls, no body has a bombproof 100% roll all the time—even the best paddlers sometimes wet exit.
And do not rush it
That is the biggest problem I had with rolling a surf kayak in a river “water park”. Tried to rush the roll because of the conditions, fast moving water and a big boulder downstream that I would hit with my helmeted head if I was not up in time.
Slowed it down, made sure my paddle was on the surface, made sure I threw by body back as I swept the paddle, and I had no problem rolling the surf kayak, in fact it turned out to be easier than my QCC700.
one afternoon with puddlejumper.
– Last Updated: Jan-27-08 8:30 PM EST –
Puddlejumper and I had never rolled before. I tried once, I suppose you could say, literally once with Guinness in springtime 2007, but never anything eelse. No coach, and no pool sessions
Puddlej and I just hit the lake, watched one another (he'd never rolled either), and critiqued one another in roto Valley Avocet. I'm pretty adept at the water, swimming and stuff, having grown up on a New England lake. So getting used to holding breathe and stuff was no great shakes.
Anyhow, we progressed with plenty of wet exits, and I will tell you, having the right boat (low back deck) DOES make a huge difference. And also forgettioong about all that C-to-c stuff like on the EJ videos was critical. I agree with the rolling method of Jay Babina, sweeping back deck roll to learn--I did not know of his thoughts on this until well after we learned o roll.
First, did the paddle float extended paddle roll. Huge sense of "I can do it" after that.
Then extended paddle no float.
And then third, no float, no paddle extended, and get it consistent, which PJ and I both did. End of day, 2 hours later, (one boat that we both used this actually took us about 1 hour each to roll), knew it pretty well.
Went back a couplle weeks later, no loss of learned skills--sort of like riding a bike, I guess Even went back with my Pop later in season, autumn, and cranked off a couple without issue. In fact, right boat wants to come back up. Windowshading is the issue, not rolling.
Now that I have it down, adapting to C-to_C is easier, for sure, so I beleiev in learning sweep roll first for sea kayaking. Sure, I know all the downsides of a sweep (unprotected posture, et cetera), but it;s a great roll. Greenland style. And 'm nt doing ww kayaking, no how.
Must admit, opposite side/off side roll fr me will take some practice. Paddle placement feels, well, off side. I will do this early in the season so as not to ingrain rolling one way only.
Thanks, puddlejumper, where ever you is, for that wonderful day of firsts for us both.
definition of a bombproof roll…
As Rick once said: “A bombproof roll is one that hasn’t met a big enough bomb.”
Though one on this board has asserted that ‘proficient rollers’ never blow their rolls, everyone (aside from said poster) fails to roll at some time(s).
One does have to keep practicing…
Learning to roll with instructor
I think a good instructor can make the process a lot easier by showing you the best way to perform the roll and by telling you if you are making any mistakes. A video showing you what you do can also be very helpful, as the saying goes: a picture is worth a thousand words.
It is certainly possible to roll without doing it the best way, but it takes more muscle and increases the chances that the roll will fail.
It took me probably 5 or 6 lessons with one of the best instructors before I had the standard Greenland roll on both sides, but I didn’t practice much on my own. My excuse is that I didn’t start until I was 73 years old, I am not as flexible as I would like.
Ragnar