nope different Jay
I’am to short and not very good at building
boats, at least for now.
Jay Babina: did I capture the essence
of your roll idea well above. I think you promote layback sweep rolls for new rollers in kayaks, no? I agree, based on my trial and error. The moment–and I love EJ and his ww boats as much as the next guy–but the moment I got that c to c and head dink and chin down stuff outta my mind, and just tried to sweep like a standard Greenland roll (just like the video of the precocious thirteen year old roller above), I was all set.
Also, for wehat it’s worth, the #1 boat on my “want to paddle” and maybe to buy list is your OUter Island, Impex version. Ciao.
Me? Eyes Closed
You ought to post this as a separate thread. My buddy wears sunglasses rolling 'cause the sunlight hurts his eyes as he comes up. My eyes are closed tight when I come up.
Hip snap
It took me well into my 2nd year of rolling before I got a decent hip snap. When I made my video, I couldn’t find anyone with a good off side hip snap to photograph. Anything is easy once you know how. To learn how to maneuver the paddle under water, a sweep with a feathered Euro - keeping it from diving, a hip snap, head dink etc., is a lot for any beginner. At least with a lay back, you can roll without all that body discipline and later you can refine into a screw or C to C if that’s what you want to do.
The C to C roll was developed by white water paddling ATHLETES.
Offside hip snap
Jay (B), thank you! I mean for mentioning the trouble you had finding someone with a good offside hip snap for the video. Now maybe I can figure it isn’t some unusual failing on my part.
My right side snap has always been bodacious. (It was everything above the waist that messed me up for so long.) So I was pretty frustrated to find that even after I got the offside roll, the left side snap has never felt as clean. I have days that it seems I get just barely enough going for it to work.
Not that it matters when I am under the water. Getting up matters a whole lot more than my placement along some normalcy curve. But I did appreciate reading that - especially since I am about 10 days away from having to go get this all back in a pool after a few months out of boats to recover from various damages.
Had one lesson
in '05, and never followed up on it. Then this summer, a buddy gave me a lesson based on the instructional section of EJ’s video, and I actually came up a couple of times. I came back to the pool for several weeks with a borrowed Jackson Fun, and thought that I really had it nailed. Then I brought a higher volume boat (Pyranha Burn), and it was like I was starting from scratch. Now I can roll the Burn pretty regularly in the pool, but still haven’t been able to get my CLC 16, which has lots of volume with high decks and broad beam, to come up, which is the primary goal of the process. This has given me the opportunity to practice paddle float reentries, though!
Recently I was taught a “modified sweep” roll, in which the hip snap happens concurrently with the paddle sweep, and the upper body comes up rotated to the rear but upright, with the head on the shoulder. This should help with the high back deck issue. I’ve also upgraded the thigh braces. We’ll see what happens.
My next intended project is to build a W. Greenland SOF for use as an all around day trip boat. That should make life easier in the rolling department, but I would still want to have the technique down and be able to roll the CLC.
not to be contrary but…
I find the question of “how long did it take you to roll” kind of an empty question with little meaning. Everything is relative, we are all individuals with different paces of learning and learning styles, with different expectations, goals and measures of achievement…it will happen when it happens… hell after all these years I am still learning the forward stroke trying to improve every time I’m on the water.
absolutely right
that’s the point I was trying, inartfully, to make above–we never are through “learning” how to roll–we are always trying to roll better.
Forward stroke is a different matter
– Last Updated: Jan-30-08 3:39 PM EST –
It is never a mater of "I got it" - forward stroke is always being worked on.
Of course, rolling should be looked at similarly - but a reliable roll is MUCH easier to get down than an optimal forward stroke. Easier to learn, easier to improve, easier to see and feel results.
No one gets a really good forward stroke in 1, 2, or 20 sessions!
I agree the "How long?" question is a bit empty as you put it - but I can't take that to the extreme of "it will happen when it happens". It won't - unless you want to assume all those widely different people are all equally determined/committed/focused.
People are as different in this as they are in anything else. All have different assumptions as well - and these are what seem to hold most back far more than anything else (followed closely by poor outfitting and too much thinking/complication).
As long as it's not looked at as a matter of "If", and is looked at as simply a matter of "When" - it will come with practice (to whatever degree works). A lot of folks get hung up because seem to keep questioning "If" even though they have countless examples of all ages and body types at all fitness levels in all manner of kayaks being able to do it.
Many (this is a non-WW observation) don't apply this simple observation to their own situations - and seem to prefer to see it as some difficult act - some Holy Grail or major achievement - and this causes them to take a more difficult path and work much harder to get it than need be. It can be frustrating enough without adding "hard". It's not hard - just different. Not the sort of thing you fix with a bigger hammer.
Most keep doing what they think they should do (and doing it harder - bigger hammer style) vs. simply feeling what is going on and adapting - something that's hard to do if there are ANY other issues (usually fear of water on some level - beyond than the healthy common sense stuff). The body can't make use of the direct feedback it's getting from each attempt or practice drill if the mind never shuts up. The analytical/critical mind will never roll the kayak. Leave it on the surface.
Rolls/braces are just another family of strokes moving the kayak around another axis (and in a fairly limited/simple way). Do people get as uptight learning ruddering strokes, sculls, or draws? Rolling/bracing can be played with like any of the other strokes - and it helps immensely to approach it with an open/experimental/calm/relaxed/inquisitive mind.
To such a mind - there is only now - and time is not a concern.
Contrary to Your Contrariness…
– Last Updated: Jan-30-08 4:37 PM EST –
I know people who quit trying to roll, almost quit trying to roll, and might quit trying to roll. Getting that first roll and improving the roll can be very frustrating. Knowing that other folks took considerable time can help people set reasonable expectations for themselves.
Greyak
That might be the best post on this subject I’ve read on this board…
I agree and…
think it’s important that they get the encouragement from some of the stories here. I consider the roll a portal.
Without a roll, many paddlers are reluctant to paddle that one stream, try to punch that big eddyline, attempt to surf that wave, etc. because they don’t want to swim & empty or inconvenience the group. Knowing they can pop up from a learning attempt of another skill opens up a whole new area for them.
That is SOOOOO Cool.
rolling
It took me 3-4 years from the first lesson in a pool to getting my combat roll (c-c) in the ocean. I have one type of roll on one side. It works, tho. Will be working on getting an offside roll this year.
As an interesting side note: I tried to learn to roll in the St. Joseph’s pool in Philadelphia at the same time Dubside was beginning to learn.
Just goes to show that we all have a different learning curve! Steve F
Breathing makes the mind calm
I think the philosophy of calm intention is a good life goal as well as in paddling. The problem with rolling is you can’t breath while under water. Getting people to relax is very important but when people practice on their own without a spotter, a failed roll can often lead to a wet exit if they are dumb enough to be out too deep to too far from the pools edge. It’s kind of hard to stay calm after you fail on your second attempt. I think rolling calmness comes with confidence and experience. But for the beginner, wanting to get up to breathe is pretty normal. I think an instructor can assure a paddler that they are there for them and they can relax and not worry about failure. But when they go off on their own, they hopefully can carry a bit of that mind set, but once they fail a roll, it’s pretty normal to get a bit anxious. Nobody wants to wet exit, drain the boat and the whole thing. I always teach people how to swim to the pools edge right in the start and or how to push off the bottom and get themselves back up. Knowing those things gives them a lot of calming reassurance.
A contraption we played with
Hey Jay,
At a pool class a few years ago, an instructor friend of mine and I were playing with an idea that I had. It involved a modified snorkel with an air hose that fed under the waistband of the spray skirt and used the air in the cockpit to allow the student to breathe while hanging upside down in the water. Of course, the goal was to see if this would eliminate the student’s lack of air panic feeling, and allow him/her to relax while learning to roll. I tried it a few times, and it worked, but not that well. I think the design just needed some refinement.
Lou
I also agree
When I post my experiences with learning to roll, my goal is to share them with the body of people who are trying to roll and finding it to be a challenge.
My suspicion is that most of these people are not posting their challenges. It’s much easier for the person who learned to roll in 5 minutes after viewing the credits of a training video to post than the person who is finding it a struggle.
My hope is that these people know that they are not alone, that it’s a process, and that it’s worth the perserverance.
Lou
That already exists…
In certain whitewater boats, some come with emergency breathing tubes that serve just that function. However, that’s mostly for pin situations and for me personally it would probably be pretty destracting for rolling.
how long to roll?
Short enough time that I still had air in my lungs. 
I just hit my forst rolls January 6th in
32 degree water in the St. Clair River. I wanted this monkey off of my back. I could not have been more awkward upside down than I was/am. It feels like my vest is full of lead. I told myself I don’t care when it happens because it will, yet when it did I let out a yell of happiness. I went to every pool session, cold water session, you name it. I taught myself little tricks like hip snapping upside down to get the rythem and feel for rotating the boat. I learned to pick myself off the bottom with my paddle. I have spent my whole life playing in the water, but I still fear not being able to get my air. I think it is from my older brother dunking me nearly to death several times when I was young. I think it is important to know that you can re-enter your boat in any circumstance. I practiced wet exits and straddle entries and float entries more than I did rolls, because I had to know that the roll was not essential to my safety and this gave me more confidence. I will now spend much more time on braces than rolling so that I can be confident in my ability to stay up. Then I plan on learning as much as I can about different rolling techniques. I know that getting to roll was very important to me; I can’t kid myself about this. I think it was like some kind ticket to entry, or maybe I felt like I was in the train station but not able to board until I learned the roll. “I am stuck here until I learn how to roll”. I know now and knew then that this is not true, but it was still there. I think that having a “bomb proof” wet exit, bow hoist, and cowboy straddle/ or float entry is something that should be mastered before much time and emotion is spent on learning to roll. I am to early in my development to be any kind of authority, these are just opinions. My spinal problems damaged my existence and hurt me greatly, kayaking is giving what I lost back to me, and I think even more. I think we all know that the learning/growing is going to go on as long as we are paddling. So for those who are trying to roll, relax there is lots of time, that said, I appreciate your sense of urgency.