Yep after doing a dozen paddle-float
rescues in a session of failed rolls, my legs were so bruised that my wife asked me if I paid “the professional entertainer” extra for the punishment.
I t6hink I did thirteen rolls the next day and only missed once.
Pain is a teacher.
Greyak
I like most of your thinking, but unlike you I could care less whether they roll or not, or what they advocate. Those driven to become skilled will, as they see the obvious logic to having a good roll. The others will choose another path, equally valid, albeit more limited. The ones who are driven will never be persuaded by the less driven, so worry not.
Surf kayaking or WW is where people really learn to paddle. In the surf you are exposed to conditions that will demand learning and practice. My advice to any sea touring kayaker who WANTS to become a skilled, competent boater, is simply get out in the surf as often as you can. For every minute on line in kayak forums match that to roll practice…and get on with it.
Have fun, and make this the year you learn to roll if you can’t!
In the end all that matters is that we have fun in nature and enjoy the water. I have no issue with someone who chooses to remain at a certain level and enjoy themselves accordingly. I feel bad for those who really want to learn, but feed themselves full of negative limiting thinking. They drive cars, but don’t roll?? Rolling is easy and fun to learn. If you can paddle a kayak in a straight line and put your pants on in the morning you can roll. Good day ya’ll.
I’ll tell that to
my champion kayak surf buddy. “Hey goober, guy on p-net says you suck cuz you got flipped!”
Your comment is silly…people who play in rock gardens, surf, tidal races, etc., routinely flip.
Isn’t it about past your bed time!
its an old phrase instructors have used generalizing about the average sea kayaker learning the roll and the skills that go along with it including bracing etc, therefore “most” won’t get into the snot bad enough to ever really need it. I’m suprised I had to spell it out for you guys but I guess thats internet conversation. Now lets all get a good nights sleep and have good wet dreams…about paddlin I mean, of course.
Sheesh.
just to stir the pot
rolling does improve your other skills dramatically. Your boat handling and paddle control will improve. Your bracing will improve…etc etc. absolute necessity in my book and was a predominant factor for me to accomplish before venturing out into the water much.
but to stir the pot…
Was it Derek Hutchinson (or one of the big guys anyway) when asked why he doesn’t practice rolling anymore his answer was “Why? I never fall out of my boat.” (or something like that)
Of course, I am quite sure that someone of that caliber would have no problem coming up should the need arise…kinda like a bicycle I think…you never forget. you may be a bit wobbly at first but I don’t think you ever forget.
Paul
too snug to fall out… 
Hutchinson still demonstrates bracing etc… so that I’m guessing he is in shape (along with decades of muscle memory)to roll should it be necessary.
I’m also guessing he no longer takes on conditions wherin he’s likely to capsize.
Hutchinson is notably older than Nigel Dennis or Nigel Foster - each of whom still undertake challenging outings.
here here!
I must agree, the most common question I hear from people when they first come into the shop is"will I get wet"?..I always answer yes…kim
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– Last Updated: May-16-06 11:39 AM EST –
"If they are white water playboaters, then the roll could be part of the move."
Yes (but I'm not talking about that).
"But, I don't have the same sense that white water boaters can't brace"
I am not implying that most WW kayakers can't brace. Still, you might be surprized at the number (maybe, at the class II+ level) who roll better than they brace or who roll when they could have braced. I was a bit surprized when a WW kayaker pointed out that they didn't need to brace because they could roll!
My point is that you should make the determination of bracing skill by observation not assumption, especially if you are involved in instruction.
"Both these skills get used and tested way more for white water boaters every time they go out on a river run"
Yes, absolutely. That's one reason I started white water kayaking.
Excellent
– Last Updated: May-16-06 11:41 AM EST –
Excellent point from the EJ video.
My point is that you should make the determination of bracing skill by observation not assumption, especially if you are involved in instruction.
"Kayaking is a Dry sport"
Is what Derek is famous for saying… I also know other paddlers up here in CT who say they haven’t had to roll in years - one of which says she doesn’t as she had a dislocation injury so always has been able to brace her way back to stability.
Derek is so likeable and unassuming and brings so much to our sport/passion. A real gentleman.
I think my favorite quote of his is: “Less than 3, there should never be” that of course refers to always paddling the ocean in groups larger than two for rescue sake. Good advice, though none of us follow it ALL the time!
Scott
PS - Thanks
I just wanted to be poster #135 to this topic!!
Thanks for starting this thread - as except for the hour to read it all it has been super!!!
Scott
Sea kayaking is not necessary!
Probably not talking to you really. Your “why not?” comment says it all. Why not indeed?
What does “not necessary” have to do with rolling? That is exactly he sort of attitude I want to get rid of in the paddling community. “Don’t need”, “Too hard”, “Advanced skill”, “Maybe later after I…”
All that is BS. Sea kayaks are made to roll. Rolling is a basic skill. It is not hard at all if you can get people’s heads straight. People paddling sea kayaks should have to come up with reasons why they don’t learn to roll, and be able to defend those reasons with their peers. 90% should not be just given a pass, and left with a partial experience of sea kayak paddling.
I was there myself. Began as an SOT paddler with no interest in SINK skills. If there are any waters you can safely paddle without a roll I’m in them, but I asked myself “why not?” and had no good answer. I proceeded to learn. I’m not hearing any good answers to “why not?” from others either.
I see absolutely ZERO valid reasons why a sea kayaker should view this any differently than a WW paddler. WW paddlers can “just brace” too and are ALWAYS near shore - and almost never go solo!
Agree sort-of
– Last Updated: May-16-06 3:51 PM EST –
"I see absolutely ZERO valid reasons why a sea kayaker should view this any differently than a WW paddler. WW paddlers can "just brace" too and are ALWAYS near shore - and almost never go solo!"
Let me knock this one off first. I guess you don't any WW (I doubt you would have made this statement if you did). While people (generally) don't do WW "solo", it would be deeply irresponsible (beyond a beginner level) to RELY on other people to rescue you. Pretty much, you are ALWAYS paddling solo on WW (especially on hard stuff).
In contrast, in many situations, it is, in fact, not unreasonable to rely on others for rescue when sea kayaking. It's done all the time. (Just because it's "routine" doesn't mean that it's "optimal".)
People doing WW routinely see conditions that most (the majority of, even) sea kayakers never see. The utility of a roll in WW approaches 100% for the vast majority of participants. The practical utility of a roll in sea kayaking is very small for the vast majority of sea kayakers. (Note that we are not talking about the tiny minority of sea kayakers who seek out the rough stuff.)
"Sea kayaks are made to roll." -> This is a great observation.
"Rolling is a basic skill". This is, in fact, not true! And there is ample evidence that clearly establishes that it isn't true! Making rolling a de facto requirement would scare people off of sea kayaking for no practical purpose. It's quite imaginable that many rolling sea kayakers would have never taken up sea kayaking if rolling was pushed as a "basic skill".
Another problem with "rolling is a basic skill" is that, I suspect, many sea kayakers are "fair weather" rollers. It takes a fair amount of dedication to become a proficient roller. More dedication than is reasonable for a "basic skill".
"The rest are not sea kayakers". This is, in fact, not true. While everybody is entitled to his or her opinion, opinions that contradict reality do no credit to their holders!
There is nothing wrong with being an evangelist for rolling!
One thing nice about sea kayaking is that can satisfy people at different levels. People are not required to make daunting commitments to take up the sport. The other nice thing is that the path to move to more advanced levels is (generally) gradual.
i just want to be 138th on this thread.
i don’t roll yet, however, i have a bomb proof cowboy scramble …
"ALWAYS paddling solo on WW "
Again, I see no reason why sea kayakers should think differently, or plan on rescue from others.
I believe group paddlers on sea or river should act like solo paddlers who happen to be together. They don’t need each other, but they can offer even more rings of protection when available.
I think it actually IS unreasonable to rely on others for capsize recovery - though it’s fine to accept it when available (though you should be up before anyone could offer!) - and awesome to have if really needed. Trouble is for most, “really needed” is any and every capsize. With boats designed to go 360 and keep water out and paddler in that’s silly.
I’m almost certainly one of those “fair weather rollers” you speak of. Don’t hate me because I have warm and generally calm waters!
Still, I can roll on both sides, with different finishes, extended and not, easily switch sides mid roll (or switch paddles, or both), not be concerned about my position when capsizing, swim the kayak to my paddle and roll up, roll with different types of paddles and boats, etc. Yes, I consider that pretty basic stuff too. Once you get one roll working - the rest is play.
If I tried to roll in a dry suit and layers in cold water I might have some issues. I haven’t had the opportunity to try, so I assume I’ll have some added learning curve. But then again, if I paddled in colder waters I’d be working out those issues and practicing such skills with far more zeal than I do here. No way would I be sea kayaking up North with no roll! (FYI - Orlando counts as the beginning of “North” when you live this far South!)
Satisfying people at different levels
You wrote: “One thing nice about sea kayaking is that can satisfy people at different levels. People are not required to make daunting commitments to take up the sport. The other nice thing is that the path to move to more advanced levels is (generally) gradual.”
That’s a nice sales pitch, and sells a lot of rec boats, but really has nothing to do with rolling - which can be learned by a person completely new to kayaking on their first day. Rolling is not advanced. Rolling does not have a “level”, or proper time. Rolling is hardly a “daunting commitment”.
The gradual nature of learning is not what is satisfying. Making PROGRESS is satisfying - independent of time taken. Gradual learning offers no real advantage - SHORTCUTS are are an advantage as you then have more time to use the skills you’ve acquired. This is not about being rushed, pressured, or competitive. It’s about efficiency.
Rolling it the biggest and most efficient shortcut I know to developing other skills.
Do you tell yourself this “daunting” stuff so you can consider your own rolling some grand achievement? Another notch on your belt or star on your cert? Something to separate you from the masses? This I think is the stuff that leads to the misconceptions about rolling and separates it from the rest of paddling - which is a HUGE mistake.
There is no reason to write it off as any of that, and using all that as an excuse to skip it or put it off. All that leads to are a lot of long time paddlers who can’t roll and have convinced themselves they have no need to (at least until an “out of boat experience” alters their perceptions) - and who are 10x harder to teach.
Rolling really can be introduced as something as integral to sea kayaking as a forward stroke. This is far different that a “requirement”, as it is just part of paddling, and not something imposed on it. It is not daunting unless someone makes a big deal about it.
I am beginning to seriously question the motives of anyone who does not see it as just part of the deal - and a worthwhile and rewarding part that pays back a hundred times what you put in to it, except may in Lou’s case… time will tell ;).
Yes, if…
… seamanship and such are primary, roll secondary, and other recoveries 3rd, and 4th…
Primary being ALWAYS used, moves secondary to “Next” use position.
“Sea Kayaker” ?
So often in this thread I hear the note of how the skill of rolling defines a “Sea Kayaker”. If we go back a few hundred years or more and look at the kayaking cultures of the north which are now basically defined as Greenlandic and Aleutian. Both kayaking cultures seemingly developed independently. There where some differences in the design of the kayaks each culture found preference in, and in the way they used them for hunting for a living. One noted difference in kayaking skills was that the Aleutians did not develop a roll. Considering the conditions of the North Pacific in which they paddled and hunted for a living, is there anyone here who could respectfully not consider the Aleutian kayakers as "Sea Kayakers?
My point here is not to downplay the kayak roll as a useful skill set, but more so to note how the term “Sea Kayaker” is in a way an ambiguous label for the majority of us.
Considering the Greenland and Aleutian kayakers who learned the skills required to go out in kayaks, travel vast distances into the cold northern oceans to hunt animals X times greater in weight and strength so as they could supply a food source for their families and tribe. Then consider how many of us here go out and kayak when we have the “leisure” time available. I for one, am not worthy or ever will be to call myself a “Sea Kayaker” on this scale.
Chris Hess
In North Jersey
my 2 cents
Every job has its own tools. You use the right tool for that particular job. If you’re out 2 miles in the ocean blue, you need to know many things and rolling is just one. If you’re swamping about in more mud than water, you need to have some skills in safe swamping. Mud can be just as deadly as quick-sand, as deadly as not rolling, as deadly as no pfd. etc., etc. You get the point…
Now you be the judge.
paddle safe, LJB.
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– Last Updated: May-17-06 12:35 PM EST –
"I believe group paddlers on sea or river should act like solo paddlers who happen to be together. They don't need each other, but they can offer even more rings of protection when available."
This is exactly the correct attitude to have (it's also an attitude that most beginners won't have). Though, in WW, it's a requirement and, for most sea kayaking, it isn't. This isn't an opinion; it's a fact.
"an ordeal" Capsizing isn't an "ordeal". It's no big deal.
"The gradual nature of learning is not what is satisfying. Making PROGRESS is satisfying - independent of time taken. Gradual learning offers no real advantage"
Read the original paragraph carefully: I am not saying what you think I'm saying. Anyway, "gradual learning" is an advantage because not everybody is a fast learner. Also, what is implied by "gradual learning" is the progress that is so satisfying.
"daunting" may be a bit of an exaggeration but I'm talking about ALL sea kayaking skills not just rolling. Anyway, getting a USEFUL roll IS a fair amount of work (for most people).
"which can be learned by a person completely new to kayaking on their first day"
Sure it can but what is the percentage of people who would succeed the first day?
"Rolling really can be introduced as something as integral to sea kayaking as a forward stroke."
I guess you've never taught a class. One instructor can teach a forward stroke to a bunch of people. Rolling requires a one-on-one approach.
"This is far different than a 'requirement', as it is just part of paddling"
Calling something a "basic" skill makes it a de facto requirement. I have no problem with calling it "just part of paddling" (I think this is a great way to present it).
"Rolling does not have a 'level', or proper time"
I agree that there is no a priori "proper time" or "level" to learn rolling. Calling it a "basic skill" says there is.
"I'm almost certainly one of those 'fair weather rollers' you speak of."
No, actually. I doubt you would have much trouble rolling in cold water. By "fair weather", I'm talking about people that have to do a lot of "prep work" before they demonstrate a roll. I suspect that it takes a fair amount of practice to get a "useful" roll.