I’m going in circles all the time
Aren’t we all? I don’t have any trouble getting my WW boat (Dagger Impulse) to carve a circle. An onside stroke or two will set up an offside carve pretty easily, and vice versa. I find that it’s a little more difficult to get my Yellowstone Solo to lock into a carve, and the circle it carves is much bigger, but if I am persistent I can get it going. Its also is a lot trickier to transition the YS from an onside to an offside carve, and vice versa.
People around my area probably think I’m nuts, but I practice craving circles on flatwater all the time. I picked up a copy of Tom Foster’s Solo Open Whitewater Canoeing DVD a couple of years ago, and I have been practicing ever since. Not much whitewater here in RI, so it gives me something to do when I stay close to home. I pretty much have the circles down, but I have a long way to go on the fancy freestyle moves.
Carving on Flat vs Carving on the River
I have not been putting in enough flatwater practice time in my whitewater boats. What I have been doing is trying like heck to get consistent carving in moving water. Current differentials, cross currents, and plain old turbulence make hash out of much of my carving forcing me back to that old stern pry.
Come to think of it that pry could use some work as well.
Glad I’m not talented. It’s good to have room for improvement!
We should split the difference
because I need more time on moving water - although my wife probably wouldn’t agree.
Hell verse Yaw couple
Heeling, outside the circle starts the bow carving. Heeling inside the circle improves paddle physics. Both heels lift the stern, which is often helpful. Heeling adds nuance.
The key to the inside circle is the setting up the yaw couple; the initiation that starts the CG skidding outside the rotational center.
Advancing
Unless paddlers make the deliberate attempt to become better paddlers it is unlikely they will discover the skills of heeling and carving circles. Whatever they learn initially that gets them down the river or around the lake is what many will stay with for much of their paddling lives. Not many solo canoeists ever attempt whitewater or freestyle so they are not confronted with the need to learn even some of the more basic skills like hitting eddies, peeling out, ferrying, bracing, backing, J leans, etc. It is when working or playing a river that the skills like heeling, carving, and working the edges, really come into play. And unless paddlers have experienced many of these moves in WW boats they may not be that inclined to attempt them in longer boats with less rocker and chine. Part of this too is who you paddle with, what kind of water you paddle, and what your goals are. Many are quite content to gently float down the river, observing wildlife, the scenery, conversing with friends, etc. Keeping the hull flat and the boat stable, rounding the bends, and staying away from strainers while using basic paddle strokes will mostly serve those ends. Others see paddling as more of a sport in itself and seek out the improvement of skills and technique as a much higher priority and push themselves to make moves that are essential to advancing. Once a paddler starts advancing, much of this just starts becoming feel without thinking about how you are using skills like carving circles that you deliberately worked on earlier.
my son Aaron tells me
weight transfer helps a lot carving in whitewater. I assume he's right 'cuz he outmaneuvers me in a less maneuverable boat. Referring to forward/aft transfer, side to side is assumed.
I’m Lucky
My wife seems reconciled to my boating addiction.
I actualy get plenty of flatwater time but find it more enjoyable to paddle flatwater boats on flatwater.
I’m suspecting chine is involved
A year ago on Pine Creek when you tried to teach me the inside circle in my Supernova, I wasn't much of a student. I had a tough time doing it at all in that boat. Then a couple weeks later I was trying it in a Yellowstone Solo and it was almost a piece of cake. I don't think my "mental practice" in the intervening time made the difference. As you know, the Supernova is about as chine-free as you can get. Prodigy X, of course, carves inside effortlessly.
Carving knife
I like Charlie’s knife model. If you’ve ever tried to carve a curve in minicell foam with a pointy knife, the tip always dives toward the center of the radius. This helps me to understand why the outside lean works when I try to turn my shallow-vee MR Indy instead of the inside turn/skid, which requires heeling nearly to the rail. Great thread! Thanks to all.
nomenclature
I might suggest that part of the issue is the term.
I learned the skill as “paddling” the inside circle; this has a different implication than “carving”.
It also seems to be a solo open boaters skill that is more relevant to rockered WW boats. Relevant, because a straighter keeled flatwater boat does not always require the attention in holding a line that a WW boat does.
One idea that works for me comes from planing hull kayak control- the understanding of spin momentum. Paddling an inside circle is an exercise in controlling the tendency of a highly rockered hull to continue to turn without straightening out. As noted by others in this thread, the boat is not really carving, it is the stern skidding. And while that is how most boats turn, the more rocker, the more the boat will continue to turn instead of naturally straightening out.
I also agree with the comments of others that it is a fundamental solo canoeist’s skill. Understanding the skill in a WW boat can also lead to better overall skill in any boat. One of the coolest moves in WW open solo, IMO, is a charging ferry without using J-strokes. Being able to do so only comes from practicing the inside circle. Do that, and control of yaw of any boat class is easy.
Right Answer, Wrong Question
I’m not asking how to paddle an inside circle.
I’m asking what hull features help a boat carve that inside circle.
I agree that long unrockered hulls don’t carve inside for beans. But neither did my highly rockered Gyramax C1. I could get Clarions Supernova to carve on my onside…barely. Couldn’t do it on my offside at all. My Atom and Slasher carve onside and offside effortlessly. Rocker and hard chines. But so does my Outrage. Still got the rocker but the chines are kind of soft.
Yes the hull carves. You can feel it. It actively resists the opposite turning force from the off center paddle strokes.
But I still don’t know why some do more than others?
Hull carving
This topic is confusing to me and I too struggle to understand. I’m no expert and should probably should stay out of this discussion, but hey, it’s p-net and that’s what we do here.
Understanding the nomenclature will help, for starts.
Inside - is this the paddle side and the side you are leaning down?
Touring kayaks turn away from the side that is leaned down (down means the deck is close to the water). This happens because the water line on the down side is longer than the water line on the upside, so that in essence, the down side is going faster than the up side, causing the kayak to turn. I like to say “hydrodynamic forces” make the boat turn. I know, its all hydrodynamics, but I’ll just call this hydro turning to differentiate it from carving.
Rockered canoes generally turn towards the side that is down (down means the gunwale is closer to the water). I thought this happens because the canoe follows the arc of the rockered hull, and I think this is what you mean by carving. I never considered stern skid, which seems to me to occur only when I stop paddling, as you do going into an eddy.
I can sometimes get longer flatter canoes to behave like a touring kayak, and turn away from the downside.
Only with canoes, I think there is force from the bow wave such that when you lean the boat, a wave forms under the bow on the up side. The boat slides off the wave, turning towards the side that is down. This reinforces carve and it works against “hydro” turning forces.
So it seems to me there are three things contributing to how the boat behaves when heeled: the hydro forces caused by waterline differential, the carving force as the boat trys to track to its rockered shape, and the pushing of the bow wave on the hull. Each different hull likely encounters variations among those three forces when leaned, and therefore behave differently. In fact, I think as you change the amount of lean, you can bring different forces into play. Some boats seem to change the direction that they want to turn in response to different amounts of lean. But this is no help with the original question of how to predict the boats behavior based on the hull characteristic, is it?
Anybody looking for a topic for a thesis? Post here when you are done.
~~Chip
Inside
Is the paddle side and the side that is down as well as the side closest to the center of the circle.
I’m not sure about the skid thing. Seems as though I remember something from “Drill Time” about skidding a turn vs carving a turn. I think the point was they leveled out the heel part way through the turn to skid the stern into place or they maintained the heel to stay on the arc. I’ll have to throw that tape in the VCR and see if I understand it any better now.
best post ever
This grasshopper needs to study this post at length.
Not sure I fully understand inside circle term. Seems like rocker and shallow arch vs shallow vee bottom are factors and maybe stern design…it’s all hull design factors right? And every hull is a different hull at every lean angle?
I’m lucky to have sampled many hulls and one unique hull was the Bluewater Freedom 17 which was actually quick and fast solo as well as tandem and it also spun on a dime and it was a shallow vee with a stern that kicked up like a sailboat’s and easily broke free to skid when turning but still added speed when cruising. The tradeoff was that the initial stability was compromised a bit tandem…boat always moving around a bit under you. I clearly remember the Osprey stern would just whip around and actually feel like it gained momentum with no paddle input at low speed, leaned over…with weight forward. Stern may have 1-2 feet of daylight…or just get very light. In my experience you can’t really force the skid in many shallow vees (Blackhawk Ariel…maybe Independence to some degree, even Blackhawk Zephyr) unless you lean them way over, and even shallow vees with low rocker (Peregrine/Kestrel, Merlin II to some degree) resist super tight inside turns relative to boats with rocker and rounded sides (Fire boats) or boats that can get their tails light (Osprey/Shearwater…easy to move forward and get stern airborne with sliding seat).
In general seems like shallow vees feel like they carve and shallow arches feel more like skidders.
I need to study Charlie’s physics lesson more.
nomenclature
Hi Chip :
you wrote
Actually the Inside Circle can be two different turns, 1. the Onside Circle and 2. the Offside Circle. The Onside circle is initiated by cross forward stokes to start a turn to the onside (paddle side) followed by a heel to the paddle side and then pure forward strokes (w/o correction). The Offside Circle is initiated by a couple of uncorrected forwards followed by a heel to the offside then crossforward strokes.
You wrote:
Heeling to either side will facilitate a turn once it is initiated. In other words if you initiate a turn to the paddleside and heel to the paddleside the turn will be helped by the heel. If you execute the same turn but heel to the offise the turn will still be to the paddleside and also aided by the heel. So any heeling helps turning. If a hull is traveling perfectly straight ( take the paddle out of the water and it continues straight) then heel the hull it will turn away from the heeled side very time. This is where the heel causes the waterline shape to become differential and cause turning. BTW, it's harder than some might think to get going perfectly straight. If there is any turning influence on a hull such as yaw, a heel will facilitate the turn but only in that direction. This is because a heel reduces the wetted surface and waterline length.
Hope this help, I tried to shorten up a long subject.
Carve vs Skid
Drilltime is an instructional video for solo whitewater canoeists. It talks about carving as a way to maintain momentum around an arc using all power strokes and no corrections. Then they show some nice overhead footage of a boat carving round a bouy followed by the same boat transitioning from a carve to a skid by leveling out the boat tilt. In the carve, maintained tilt, the boat stays on the arc and is powered around the buoy. In the skid, leveled, the stern slides right around. They talk about using the carve to power into larger eddies and the skid to turn the boat into tighter eddies instead of blowing through (something I do all too often).
At least in that boat (a Dagger Ovation I think) there is a clear difference between carving the inside circle and letting the stern skid.
It makes me think that carving has a lot to do with the keel line under the tilted boat being shaped like a C or maybe a ( with the open side towards the center of the circle.
[Edit Nope I got that bass ackwards. On a hard chined boat the open side of the C would be pointed away from the center. Doh! ]
I suspect that different hulls combine carving with skidding to varying degrees.
correction
In a previous post I copied and commented on some portions of a post from Booztalkin and the copied text did not reproduce in my post. Not sure why, its a computer thing. I could not go in and edit either. Anyhow here’s a second try:
Hi Chip :
you wrote: < Understanding the nomenclature will help, for starts.
Inside - is this the paddle side and the side you are leaning down?
Actually the Inside Circle can be two different turns, 1. the Onside Circle and 2. the Offside Circle. The Onside circle is initiated by cross forward stokes to start a turn to the onside (paddle side) followed by a heel to the paddle side and then pure forward strokes (w/o correction). The Offside Circle is initiated by a couple of uncorrected forwards followed by a heel to the offside then crossforward strokes.
You wrote: < Rockered canoes generally turn towards the side that is down (down means the gunwale is closer to the water). I thought this happens because the canoe follows the arc of the rockered hull, and I think this is what you mean by carving. I never considered stern skid, which seems to me to occur only when I stop paddling, as you do going into an eddy.
I can sometimes get longer flatter canoes to behave like a touring kayak, and turn away from the downside.>
Heeling to either side will facilitate a turn once it is initiated. In other words if you initiate a turn to the paddleside and heel to the paddleside the turn will be helped by the heel. If you execute the same turn but heel to the offside the turn will still be to the paddleside and also aided by the heel. So any heeling helps turning. This is because a heel reduces the wetted surface and waterline length. If a hull is traveling perfectly straight ( take the paddle out of the water and it continues straight) then heel the hull it will turn away from the heeled side every time. BTW, it’s harder than some might think to get going perfectly straight. In this case, the heel causes the waterline shape to become differential and cause turning. If there is any turning influence on a hull such as yaw, a heel will facilitate the turn but only in that direction.
Hope this help, I tried to shorten up a long subject.
it depends
with forward speed most designs ‘want’ to go to the right with a heel to the left and vice versa. Some designs will do this the opposite way though! Can also be different with the amount of heel… Experimenting with your own boat is the only sure way to find that out. But as pagayeur pointed out correctly, it is hard to get going perfectly straight to find out how a hull reacts on heel.
Yup, one of the good ones
I've caught myself repeating 'peripatetic pivot point' over and over again. I want to be able to say it 'three times, fast', as I suspect this may be a key point.
getting to basics
Sorry Tommy this is not an answer to your question but hopefully will help level the field by providing some background.
The Inside Circle was pushed by Tom Foster as a way for paddlers in WW canoes to understand hull and paddle dynamics and start using them ultimately to paddle straighter.
Tommy C1 is correct, the footprint (when heeled) of different hull designs are different. If you put a “lake canoe” on sand heel it over, then trace it’s footprint you’d see one side is straight and the other a parabola. Water will flow passed the straight side, but pile up on the curved side and force a turn. That is why, all other forces being equal a hull tends to turn away from the heeled side (unless initiated in the other direction first). The footprint on heeled WW hulls can actually be shaped like a crescent and are much more prone to turning.
WW hulls that have little differential rocker or in many cases symmetrical rocker, will continue turning in the direction initiated even when not heeled. In a WW hull, because of its design, a forward stroke should be considered an initiation to the offside and the turn will continue unless stopped ( usually by a correction such as a stern pry or J) and that, more than other hull designs becomes like putting on the brakes. So in a WW hull, correction strokes are used to stop spinning more than for correction and thus very counter-productive. We can take advantage of this tendency with the Inside Circle, which allows for all power strokes and no correction strokes. Eventually a paddler can learn how to finesse these circles into an ever increasing radius and finally go more or less straighter using only power strokes. In a way it works like this: the paddler starts a slight carve to the onside then does forwards w/o those slowing correction strokes, which acts as an offside initiation and the forces off-set each other, resulting in a straighter line with better speed.
The best analogy I can think of is an onside upstream ferry. The current tends to push the bow into an onside turn but this can be offset by power forwards which tend to produce offside direction, resulting in an easy ferry known as a “jet ferry”.