@SilentWaters said:
I guess I should have pointed out that my main problem here is not my speed…I get up to speed fine but have to paddle more than I would like to keep that speed.
Well, keep one factor in mind, and that is, at any steady speed, the resistance your boat encounters in moving through the water is the same as the propulsive force provided by your paddle. If you are paddling really hard, your boat will go at a speed where the resistance it encounters moving through the water is also “really hard”. Therefore, when going fast, the boat will decelerate very quickly if you pause in your paddling for only a moment, simply because the resistance to forward motion is so great. I bet that’s what is going on when you perceive yourself to be in paddling “more than you want to keep that speed.” This is unavoidable and it will happen with every boat that is paddled at a speed that’s getting close to the maximum. Boats which are designed to work well at top speed will show the same behavior, but they will be going even faster when it is happening.
By contrast, if you were to paddle this same boat at 3 mph, very little effort would be required because the boat provides very little resistance at that speed. So, at 3 mph, the boat will seem to glide a whole lot better, simply because the resistance force which causes it to decelerate once you stop paddling is much less. At that speed, the boat loses speed much more slowly and it won’t feel like you need to keep paddling with no pauses.
A larger surface area blade gives you better acceleration. Kind of like a low gear in a car or on a bicycle. Let’s you speed up quickly. But you use a higher gear to maintain the speed once you have gotten there. Now it isn’t quite an exact comparison, as we don’t change gears in a kayak (that would require changing paddles as you move from slow speed to high speed). But it does say that a large surface area blade is not going to let you hold a speed easier than your current blade.
As an example, people use going around Vancouver Island as a speed challenge - roughly 740 miles in total. Current record is some 14 or 15 days. 2 record holders back, the record was set by Joe O’Blenis (at 17 days or so), who used a greenland paddle to do the record. This is the total opposite of what you are looking at in regards to blade shape - a long skinny blade. None of the other record holders (either before or after Joe) use large blade paddles like what you are considering.
I paddle a Journey from time to time. As you accelerate up past 3-4 mph the amount of energy needed to maintain the speed increases much more than you would think. An increase of speed of 10% costs you a lot more than 10% extra energy. Some where at 4.5 to 5 (all numbers estimates) you will hit a max, at which increasing speed takes a tremendous amount of energy - basically you need to get the boat planing to get any additional speed. Power needed for this would be rated in horsepower, well above what a man could produce. So a cruise at 4 mph uses quite a bit more than twice as much energy as cruising at 2 mph.
Now - to hold a speed with less effort, there are a few options:
as mentioned before, learn to increase your cadence. This is the kayak equivalent to a high gear on a bike or car. And it works better with a smaller blade.
get a kayak that has a higher hull speed and moves through water with less resistance. In general, longer and skinnier, preferably with little rocker.
get a more efficient paddle and learn to use it. The people who have beaten Joe O’Blenis have all used wing paddles as far as I know. These have cup shaped blades and are what all the racers use. The paddling process is slightly different, so it would take some learning, but they are more efficient. And there is a downside to using them - things like rolling and bracing are less effective with them (which is a trade off many are not willing to make, why you don’t see these paddles that often).
You want more glide so you need a longer thinner boat. You need 210 for your height and boat. Thanks whole system needs to match. Like taking a car to the drag strip with skinny tires and to much power. You can buy an Ikelos paddle for 400 and it won’t be wasted if you get a bigger thinner boat. When you paddle. If you paddle for speed your torso rotates and as you drive your legs the boat rocks side to side slightly. Invest in a video or look on you tube for instruction. If you want to go fast keep paddle next to boat with near parallel stroke. You could find a nice thin long composite kayak for 700-800. To long a paddle makes you tired faster.
Wings are said to gain 3 percent in speed. Good for racing not so good for every thing else as mentioned above. If you pull the paddle really hard a get a vortex behind it your wasting your energy. This is because your boat will not move forward as easily as a thin kayak.
Think about what has been mentioned already about Greenland paddles. They are virtually all I use anymore for flatwater touring (only use a regular blade paddle for winding creeks using shorter boats, where I need to turn quickly). I have several touring kayaks from 14’ to 18’ and use the GP with every one of them. My standard Werner and Aquabound paddles now just get carried under my deck lines as spares or to switch to on long days to use different muscles – though I am always happier to go back to the GP after using the others for a little while.
Yes, GP’s don’t have the initial “torque” for getting you moving off the starting line fast, and when I paddle with friends using standard paddles, I start out behind. But once we are up to speed I pull ahead of most of them and the longer we are out the longer I can maintain a better pace ahead of them. In windy conditions the Greenland is much superior because the narrower blade doesn’t catch the wind like a spoon blade will, which is especially important in high angle paddling. You increase your speed by increasing your cadence, not by increasing brute force.
Don’t let the narrowness of Greenland paddles put you off – remember that these were developed by ocean hunters (the Inuit) for covering long distances and chasing sea mammals. They also put far less stress on your body enabling you to paddle longer and farther without risking injury or getting fatigued. Check out some YouTube videos of people using them to see how efficient they are. You can’t typically buy GP’s in stores but there are a lot of people who make and sell them on line and you can often find a decent one for between $150 and $200. Being wood or carbon fiber, they also tend to be lighter than most mid range cost standard paddles.
Man, you are all over the place with what you describe. It sounds like you are trying to flog the boat, the paddle, and the water into submission. Not a good tactic for the long term.
Instead of insisting that you need a bigger blade, spend the bucks on some good instruction on forward stroke. As in a real live human who SEES WHAT YOU ARE DOING, right there and right away. You are going to need immediate feedback from someone who can cut to the chase. And that person can’t be a shrinking violet, because the impression I’m getting is that you don’t how much you don’t know and will argue with the instructor because, being a big “ripped” guy, you might have intimidated other advisors in other activities. BIG isn’t an automatic advantage in kayaking, either with the blade or the body.
You could also have someone videorecord your paddling: at the start, after 30 minutes, after 60, after 90, etc. That will reveal more than self-reported words do.
True, BUT they used bone or ivory reinforcing inlays in many of their wooden paddles, Ivory is made of keratin which is bundles of monomer filaments, structurally similar to CF and just as tough.
Finally, someone who paddles like I do - high torque, low RPM. I’m 200+ lbs, always looking for the biggest baddest paddle. My best Euro paddle is a Lendal Powermaster 240, and with some extensions it’s a 250. Lendal tried to talk me out of it, but the dealer told them I was “NFL size” and sold it to me. Lendals are almost extinct, but there is probably something similar. Current racing paddle is an Epic Large wing set to 233 cm, a custom order. I also have 235+ and 245+ custom wing paddles. When I first bought an Epic 18 kayak the pros recommended a 215 mid wing paddle, and it felt like I was spinning my wheels. That’s when I started trying larger paddles, never looked back. This evening I paddled 7 miles in 63 minutes in an Epic V8 with the 233 large wing, couldn’t do that with anything smaller.
The ivory or bone inlays (in Inuit paddles) were for reinforcement, especially at the tips. Some modern paddle makers use bone, epoxy or white plastic to reproduce the effect.
@rosborn45 said:
Finally, someone who paddles like I do - high torque, low RPM. I’m 200+ lbs, always looking for the biggest baddest paddle. My best Euro paddle is a Lendal Powermaster 240, and with some extensions it’s a 250. Lendal tried to talk me out of it, but the dealer told them I was “NFL size” and sold it to me. Lendals are almost extinct, but there is probably something similar. Current racing paddle is an Epic Large wing set to 233 cm, a custom order. I also have 235+ and 245+ custom wing paddles. When I first bought an Epic 18 kayak the pros recommended a 215 mid wing paddle, and it felt like I was spinning my wheels. That’s when I started trying larger paddles, never looked back. This evening I paddled 7 miles in 63 minutes in an Epic V8 with the 233 large wing, couldn’t do that with anything smaller.
Looking at there recommendations in Epic paddle wizard I filled in some blanks and nothing near that length is recommended even for 6’-4" height 217 was what came up. How long have you been winging it? What would be you average for a 15 mile paddle be? What is the surface area for your Lendal? Tried to look it up but could not find the specs. I thought I want bigger too. I have a 205 Ikelos and a 215 Ikelos I use. I am thinking 210 would be best for me for most paddling. 215 in good in my tandem Libra XT 205 for real fast cadence in my CD Extreme. Still want to get a 210 Ikelos. Saw one on ebay used but it went for over 300 for that price I’ll go new at 400 if I have to. What do you use to to track your speed? I use an app Endomondo. thanks’
Started racing in 2001, and started winging in 2005, Didn’t take long to figure out I can’t use off-the-shelf paddles, I must be a freak. I also found the large blades help in whitewater, but that requires a shorter shaft to keep off the rocks. Lendal is great with the interchangeable blades and shafts. Don’t usually paddle 15 miles, most of my races are 6 miles so that’s the distance I train, but I’ve done a 42-miler a few times with the large wing and good results. I normally do 6-6.5 mph. Shorter races closer to 6.5, longer races closer to 6. Don’t know the specs on the paddles, will try to find out or measure. GPS is a Garmin Edge 500 - speed, time, distance, heart rate. Don’t know anything about your boats or paddles, can’t help there. Good luck, so many options.
@rosborn45 said:
I normally do 6-6.5 mph. Shorter races closer to 6.5, longer races closer to 6.
There you have it: Some real-world evidence regarding hull speed.
Here’s Rosborn 45, a guy who paddles like he’s Hercules or something, and yet for “shorter races” when it’s a good bet that he really pours on the power for the duration of the race, his speed is exactly the same as the calculated hull speed for his boat. The V8 is no slouch in the designed-for-speed department either, so I wouldn’t be surprised if he can sometimes push it a little faster than that, like maybe if the race were even shorter or if he ate his Wheaties that morning (I doubt if the younger folks here know what that remark is about).
That should say a lot about the wisdom of the OP trying to travel nearly at hull speed or perhaps faster with a boat having a much more average design, such that it’s sure to “hit the hull-speed wall” much more abruptly, meaning that keeping it at that speed (which in this case is only 5.5 or 5.6 mph), or perhaps slightly exceeding it, will be even more difficult than Rosborn45 finds it to be with his V8. To the OP, I again suggest taking a GPS out on the water, and if the GPS tells you that increasing your speed from 5.0 to 5.5 MPH requires you to switch from moderate effort to giving it everything you’ve got, ask yourself it it’s really worth it, and think about whether or not 5.0 mph (or thereabouts) is actually fast enough for that particular boat.
GPS I need to order any suggestions? just a cheap trusty one is all I care for nothing fancy. Also I have a friend (let’s just say an awesome connection) sending me 2 paddles both the same models…the Werner Corryvrecken. He is sending me a 220cm and a 210cm to try both out. If I end up liking one of these he will cut me a really good deal on one…or I can just send them back but my friend is swearing up and down that I will love these and thinks I should stick with a slightly longer paddle like the 220cm…but again he is sending me a shorter one as well just so I can feel the difference.
I am a little hard headed I know…but I just need to know what a paddle with a lot more surface area that is actually designed for the high angle paddling my body naturally wants to do feels like.
…again as to not complicate you fellow Kayakers…I am looking to get to speed quicker and hold that speed without having to paddle as much as I am currently doing. I strongly prefer a higher angle paddle stroke where the paddle stays more linear and close to the sides of the Kayak…at first I thought I was cheating or paddling incorrectly because by paddling this way it felt like a nitrous kit all of a sudden kicked in…but apparently from reading up on the internet I am actually using a higher angle aggressive style and I have the wrong kind of paddle for this. This style involves me rotating my torso more (I also keep my head straight and try my best to lean more forward for proper form which is coming around as I am getting more flexible in my lower back/hips whatever is involved . I have never been a very flexible guy but the Kayaking is helping me out with that and it sure as heck beats taking up Yoga to get it )…it feels really good on my whole body (also my thighs feel nice and snug but not extremely snug against the thigh braces just enough so my legs are involved as well somehow) I feel great in this Kayak almost like it is a part of me…I am very “Connected” to it…and my arms do not actually curl to do the paddling like I was at first…the long video up top is close but that guy is just too deep I fall asleep trying to get through the whole thing,lol. I also want more Torque for those windy days out in the Lake…I am not really interested in going any faster than I already am (although if it is possible I’ll take it, ) again I would prefer less strokes (and I know my technique is still not perfect) and do not mind if I have to paddle harder because of pushing a larger blade…as long as I am staying at my current speed without having to ahhh…I think you all get the idea now.
Hey I mean free paddles to try out what is not to like and supposedly really decent ones as well.
Let’s face it as of now I am using a 230cm “Aquabound StingRay Hybrid” recreational paddle that I am using like a high angle aggressive paddle. I am told this particular paddle is great for Women and small children. I am neither of those.
I believe you all really I do…but again no matter what anyone tells me I am going to go ahead and try out a larger paddle anyway just to get it out of my system…if this makes things worse on me then I can have you all say “I told you so” or whatever but I want to get that sweet added Torque.
My first paddle was a Sting Ray Carbon and then I moved to a crank-shafted Werner Cyprus so I’ll be interested in what you think of the two paddles you try out.
never tried one sadly. :s
He is sending me a 220cm and a 210cm to try both out. If I end up liking one of these he will cut me a really good deal on one…or I can just send them back but my friend is swearing up and down that I will love these and thinks I should stick with a slightly longer paddle like the 220cm…but again he is sending me a shorter one as well just so I can feel the difference.
) again I would prefer less strokes (and I know my technique is still not perfect) and do not mind if I have to paddle harder because of pushing a larger blade…as long as I am staying at my current speed without having to ahhh…I think you all get the idea now.