Bah
If they’re so finnicky to seat in the “correct” fashion, to me that means bad design. Never heard the volume of complaints about Kayaksport or Valley hatches.
And IMHO, it’s kinda lame for the “company man” to be blaming what is clearly a design issue on user error. Implying the user base is inept and the design is fine. Clearly not the case.
Yes, they were properly sealed.
– Last Updated: May-10-08 11:00 PM EST –
At least in regard to my Tempest 165 Pro, it WAS NOT 'user error'.
BTW, I have had lengthy discussions about Wildy's original hatch system with Steve S. It's the main reason I no longer own my 2004 Tempest Pro. Great hull design, but the original hatches were not effective.
Confluence chose to replace their hatch system with Kajaksport hatches in their later model Tempest Pros. This was obviously done for a reason, particularly when you factor in that Kajaksport hatches cost a bit more than Wildy's original proprietary lids. I will let you draw your own conclusion as to why they made this change ;-)
Yep, VCP or Kajaksport are the way to go
I have never had a problem with ‘properly’ sealing a Kajaksport or VCP hatch. They don’t come off unintentionally and compartments stay bone dry in my experience.
clearly a design issue?
– Last Updated: May-11-08 7:35 AM EST –
not sure you can back that statement. As was said, the majority of the issue was not seating them properly. I have had two boats with Valley Hatches that leaked far worse than any other boats I have owned. It is all individual experience. In my experience with three poly tempests, minimal leakage on each of them.
Paul
respectful disagreement
i will say one may disagree with Flatpicks comments on the hatches, or how they work, etc. but to do so in such a disrespectul off hand way is really poor form. the designer of these WS boats, Steve Scheerer offers remarkably unbiased advice, and routinely recommends boats for which he has no vested interest, other than that of a genunine enthusiast. he sure takes a lot of unnecessary crap from people just because he works for a a kayak company, when really, he is on this forum primarily as another fan, who wants to help others and provide insights, for which he is overwhelmingly qualified. too bad some of you can’t see and respect that.
Lots of good choices …
mentioned here in these posts. The P&H RM 160 is a fine boat. It rolls easily and has a low aft deck for layback style rolls. I just taught a fellow how to roll his with a greenland paddle first, and then with and extended euro paddle. He was having a lot of trouble with timing the sweep stroke and hip snap, but started hitting rolls right away when I switched him to a greenland layback.
The big advantages of the P&H and Valley boats are welded plastic bulkheads (these are the most watertight and maintenance free types for plastic boats) and the triple layer plastic (it is significantly stiffer than boats from manufacturers that don’t use triple layer).
The other boats are all good as well. Try as many as you can to see what you like. I’m the same size as you and my top six in no particular order are: Valley Avocet RM, Valley Aquanaut RM, P&H Capella RM 160, Wilderness Systems Tempest 165, Nexky Chatham 16, Valley Nordkapp RM.
I personally didn’t like the Chatham 17. The Wilderness Systems Tempest 170 is probably too big for you for your intended use.
That said, don’t give up on the idea of a fiberglass boat. Older used ones can often be found in the same price range as new plastic boats.
Cheers,
~wetzool
Huh?
– Last Updated: May-11-08 10:18 AM EST –
My response was in regard jonsprag1 post above, questioning as to whether the hatches were properly sealed. I actually didn't see Steve's post until your comment.
I have the up most respect for Steve and his hull design.
thanks all
but…some of our hatches DO leak a bit. =:-0)
It is quite hard to get the tolerances perfect on a ‘baked’ item. The rims are speced just so but differences in temperature, resin colors, humidity, etc. vary the product a bit and cause some inconsistencies.
Thanks for the kudos JVB! I do try and stay fairly neutral on many respects and just offer advice. One of the gang whom just happens to work for a BIG kayak company!
off to paddle something sweet on a sorta sunny Sunday!
steve
A teapot to put it in?
Yes
I’m probably overthinking this trying to get that perfect boat. There are many boats that fit the bill, but I tend to over analysize with big purchases.
I think you’re hinting a used fiberglass. I did think about it, but even without the money issue, I like the idea of less worries with plastic boat.
As for my aspirations, the ultimate would be much more than what I’d mentioned in the original post, but I’m trying to be realistic and get something that’d serve my needs well for the next 5 years or so.
Thank you everyone
… for all the recommendations.
I certainly didn’t mean to start a debate, and I apologize for not stating the original post in a way to circumvent that.
I think I have a pretty good idea of which boats to try. Fiberglass (used) is a possibility, but I like the idea of care-free® plastic.
Thanks again, and I really appreciate your time and input.
If you can figure out…
…a way to prevent a debate on this board, I’d like
to know what it is.
That way I could avoid that subject and get straight
to the blood-letting.
Debate and smart-ass is what we do best.
paddled one 4 or 5 times -
on the same demo day at ECCKF, and the poly Aquanaut LV is a boat I gotta have someday.
danm leaky tempest polys–try this
– Last Updated: May-12-08 3:36 AM EST –
you might want to check the seal of the bulkheads. if the bead wasn't done properly in the factory, or if a hunk of foam was missing in the bulkhead, as in my boat (!), you'll need to lay over a bead of lexel, and plug up any leaks. you can find them by filling the compartments with water, and seeing what comes out on the other side, and where.
and you really have to work those hatches on. Not just pound on the rim until you can pound no more, but actually look all the way around to make sure it is as far down as it can go. that's on the forward and day hatches.
On the big oval back hatch, you need to actually go around it with your fingers, and push the edge down all the way around to **work it over** the rim. Then you need to look at it from the side to make sure the back hatch is flat on, and there's not a little gremlin pushing just a little section off the rim, ever so sneakily.
So, between checking the bulkheads and lexeling them if needed, and really working those hatch lids down, I'm pretty sure you wont be finding two quarts of water in you compartments. Check the nut on the skeg box in teh back hatch to make sure it's tight, too.
I haven't heard of any boat that's one hundred precent hatch dry, btw, after some upside down and surf time, and especially upside down surf time. i'd like to know it if such a creature exists.
after four or five hours of upside down surf time yesterday, getting pounded repeatedly, just a cup of water in the forward hatch, and day hatch. the back hatch of my re-lexeled, carefully sealed, skeg-box screw tightened plastic tempest, was dry.
I think
he was referring to lumbago’s post, not yours
whatever
Since virtually day one we have all heard about problems with the Wildy hatches.
I hardly think it was flippant to point out that someone who works for the company was downplaying the issue.
I do give props to SS for hanging around here and sharing his knowledge, and know he’s been here at least since Alder Creek was his main priority, not Confluence. But I’d also be reticent to say I haven’t noticed a difference in his posting habits.
There is nothing wrong with being immersed in and enthusiastic about ones own place of employment, in fact it’s great. Nothing wrong with being proud of ones products. And maybe that accounts for the difference I’ve noticed. But on the other hand, I think it’s fair to acknowledge the strong likelihood of some bias, even if it’s an unwitting bias.
I will also acknowledge his loyal ‘following,’ and expect a throurough rebuttal of all that I’ve said. And in anticipation of that, I just want to reiterate the point that a change of perspective is human, and I’m not trying to make SS out to be a corporate zombie. BUT he developed his strong reputation here when he was an “independent operator,” even if he has had ties with Wildy for some time (a la Tempest).
All that said, I like having SS around. He gives good general advice, gives neat tidbits about workings at Confluence, a great depth of knowledge, and brings a wealth of experience to the board. I simply think ppl should keep in mind he works for a watersports congolmeration now.
three hats
Steve S. does wear three hats here: as an experienced paddler, a former dealer who was once a WS “Dealer of the Year” & now as a designer for WS. Just a factual timeline of his career in paddling.
Sometimes the lines of these different roles and experiences blur & it is difficult to tell from which perspective he is explaining/recommending/reassuring.
It can be a fine line to walk. Being human he will not always walk it perfectly. At times it looks like his Wildy Systems hat dwarfs the others. By all accounts he is a very giving person dedicated to paddlesports - all the more reason he has to be above reproach when making comments about his company’s products.
I prefer the more understated contributions by Peter Orton of Valley, Jay Babina or Patrick Onno. There are dealers here like EricNyre and outfitters like Mark Pecot of Kayak41North (just as examples, there are many others) who make comments about kayaking retail or guiding practices without touting the superiority of their businesses & products.
Steve S. can make his contributions, as can we all, subject to anyone’s valid critique. Just consider the source in proper perspective. We do that in the rest of our lives, we may as well do it here for consistency.
As for his “following” there are two ways to look at that.
People who give angry, defensive or lockstep retorts are not worth the time of a thoughtful response.
However, I’ve now read posts over the years from many Tempest owners who have a balanced & reasonable take on the strong and weak points of their boats. The most frequent cited of the latter are the hatch covers. It gave WS something to work on and they upgraded to Kajaksport hatches, at least in the later FG versions. This is good interaction between consumers & the company because these Tempest owners were honest & forthcoming.
All kayaks have their strengths & weaknesses. This board has great value when we attempt to discuss them in a factual & unbiased way. The unbridled love songs can go to the bar or to the Reviews 
I’m partial to the Tempest
because it is my first (170 plastic). I have no idea if my hatches leak because I don’t know how to roll (yet) but they certainly haven’t gotten any water in them from waves or washing the boat down with a hose.
I will say though (from washing with a hose), I got a tablespoon or two of water to leak through the front bulkhead to the front compartment with the hose. (I was trying on purpose). Didn’t get any to go through the back to the Dayhatch though.
I love the Tempest except it needs to go on a major diet. No kayak should weigh more than 2.5 lbs per foot (no clue what that is in metric).
T170 great yak
I’m really happy with mine, no leaks at all and I’ve had her in crazy seas.
took me a long time to decided on this boat but happy I did.
CD Oracle thermoplastic
while not a day boat or polyethelene it would be worth trying out