Yes JackL, Sea Wind is a solo.
Criteria
We all tend to let our criteria creep: flat water, but some moving, and how about the odd class II is pretty broad.
That said, the basic Solo tripper, as done by David Yost’s Nomad, Merlin II, Bob Brown’s Slipper, Dave Kruger’s RockStar, John Winters Osprey and others pretty well fill that bill.
Individual paddle skills also play a huge part in hull selection, and skills tend to increase pretty rapidly, especially with instruction, then tend to fade away slowly.
Someone with a perfect forward stroke and better balance can control more stern rocker and come into class II paddling, allowing consideration of Jim Henry’s Guide, Harold Deals SRT and Yost’s DragonFly and WildFire.
And then there is the size thing. Is the paddler a tight 150 lbs, a rangy 230 or a heavy 250?
No, we can’t get along with just one solo canoe, but any individual can, even if it is less fun.
When you get in a better boat with
proper outfitting, you’re obviously going to rule the rivers!
Seriously, you can go on like you are, and it sounds like you are doing quite well, but what could you do in, say, a Prodigy X, with the seat in the proper place in the boat?
Probably not much more
– Last Updated: Jul-09-11 12:13 AM EST –
I sort of gave up WW canoeing in favor of WW kayaking for about 10 years, now have moved on to mostly sea kayaking. I still do a little WW on occasion, but not with the canoe. It was a very good boat for the job, and a good boat if I ever want to do downriver weekend or fishing trips at the class 1-2 level, so I keep it around.
I just checked that Prodigy X. Not a bad looking boat. I think it would be a great WW open boat for the right person, but too small for me. At the time I was doing a lot of canoeing, I tried an OT H2Pro, Dagger Caper, and MR Courier and all but the Caper felt too small. I guess those boats tell you how long ago that was, huh? ;^)
Canoes certainly have their place, and I had a lot of fun running the stuff I did in mine. Last time I paddled the Legend in some bigger CIII (maybe 5 years ago?), it behaved exactly as I expected. It gives you respect for what they can do, especially ones so well designed that they can be pushed beyond their design intent when you match the right paddler, boat, outfitting and skill.
Why this is a good and relevant topic
Like many others here, I own multiple boats and believe in having the right tool for different jobs.
However,
- You have to start your solo paddling career with something, and trying to get a multiple use boat is a reasonable philosophy to begin with.
- You may end your career with one boat, as I am sort of doing.
When I stopped working and had time to travel around NA in my van, I initially wanted to have all my best tools for the various waters I would meet. I narrowed it to four boats: a FW solo (Lotus Caper), a WW solo, my carbon infused Surge seakayak, and my outrigger. But I couldn’t really carry 4 boats conveniently. So I sacrificed the WW canoe and that whole side of the sport.
Very. Painful.
Then I found myself not using the seakayak because it was too hard to get it, the middle boat, off and on my roof rack. Plus, I’d become disillusioned with the double blade and the whole SINKing feeling. Ditching the kayak, I’m down to an outrigger and a FW solo on my roof. But neither can take me down a bumpy river in the style I like, and I want a boat that can.
So, now I’m back full circle to the situation of a first time boat buyer: wanting a solo that can do a little bit of everything relatively well so I can travel around the continent in my dotage with only one boat over my roof. But I don’t own the right tool. All mine are TOO specialized.
Thus the SRT, even though some in this thread whisper Wildfire in my ear. They are partially right, as it turns out, and I astonish myself by buying yet another canoe, the Wildfire, which displaces the outrigger on my van. Here we go again.
So, for two years I’ve been toting both SRT and Wild, but they’re sort of overlapping in function. This summer I’m carrying just one boat and it’s the SRT, which suits me better for security in flat and whitewater waves and for carrying capacity.
But, you know, I’m starting to think again about my seakay …
Oops, my bad
Thanks for correcting me.
Jack L
My one boat
For one boat for me and my padling preferences my choice would be a downsized 14’ Swift Osprey in the new kevlar infused layup. Of cours they don’t make a such a boat, so ther you go. I sure would miss my Flashfire though!
Turtle
The Blue Hole OCA was the canoe
that conquered many rivers not already run in Grumman shoe keels. A friend of mine placed 3rd in medium class slalom nationals back in the early 80s, beating a bunch of people in specialized boats. I’ve paddled an OCA now and then. The Legend is sort of an improved OCA, low rocker, steady base. If you want to do multiple overnights on western rivers with some whitewater, the Legend is just fine. But if you get a Caption, sort of a Caper descendant, you get lots more capability in maneuvering, even with gear aboard. You may not care about that.
When I nominate a multipurpose open canoe for whitewater, I don’t have the Legends on the list, because their design is outdated. There’s nothing wrong about the design, but it’s just not as much of a WW river tripper as it could be.
downsized Osprey?!
would be very interesting for me too!
My choices
Probably a Merlin II, Freedom Solo or an Osprey and portage the harder stuff. Or a Wildfire.
If I could only own one solo for what I do in canoes: Magic.
'Bout time I chimed back in…
– Last Updated: Jul-09-11 4:46 PM EST –
Lot's of interesting responses here. It seems that many would prefer a canoe that will handle the rough stuff a little better and deal with it's short comings on flat water (even though my OP mentioned very little WW). Am I misinterpreting this?
Which leads us to why I asked this question: I'm the type of guy that would rather have fewer items that do many things "OK" than multiple things that are more dedicated and specialized. Boats are no different. For the past 7 or 8 years I've been paddling a Blue Hole tandem as my solo boat and only with a double bladed paddle. No set up or anything, just turn it around and go. And as such I had decided that I needed to get a dedicated solo boat and the Blue Hole just wouldn't cut it. Trim outta whack, Like a kite in the wind, tracked about as well as an innertube.
Fast forward to a few weeks ago: Recently I have installed a new bow seat (or is it the stern seat now?) and a kneeling thwart 16" from center. What happened when I did this was it made my double paddle clank against the wider sides with every stroke. So being of a somewhat logical race I decided to try a single blade on it. Opened a whole new world to me. No more water in my lap or bottom of the boat. Scoot my butt or my knees (yes I like to kneel) a little to the side, lean the boat over and learned to j-stroke it. Give me about 10lbs of liquid ballast up front and my trim is pretty good and while I haven't had it in a stiff wind the past few times out the mods had to of made a difference.
So now I'm down to the question.....Do I really need a different canoe? Years ago I paddled an Argosy and Vagabond and at the time I thought they were a huge improvement especially in the wind (prefered the Argosy between the two). Now I'm thinking the difference will be less, I've closed the gap somewhat and my former kite may make a good all around craft. It also seems to me that my modified Blue Hole fits the mold of what many of you would consider a good "one solo canoe" for everything. Right? Wrong? 180 degrees off?
LK
i sent him a message
I have never met Harold Deal. I just sent him an email at the only address I could find for him by googling, one of the form “d-u at f.n”. If you know him and can alert him to an incoming message from this nycmhandy guy (my address is my paddling.net name at yahoo.com), maybe I can get past his defenses. Thanks for letting us know about the doc.
Mark
solo boats for very-low-class whitewater
If I assume for a moment that I know the answers to the questions I raise below, then any of 30 solo canoes will work for you (and I will list some shortly). I recommend that you get whichever one you can get your hands on used, cheap, and nearby, then use it to learn what you really want. As for whether you need a solo canoe, clearly you do not, since you have been happily paddling a tandem for seven years. But if you are like me, you will buy a solo to upgrade from paddling a tandem as a solo, then you will notice that you never paddle the tandem anymore, then you will sell the tandem, and you will never look back. My friends thought I was mean, but I wasn’t willing to keep a thousand dollars tied up in a canoe that was never used, except when they paddled it once a year.
Here’s a list of models that would probably work for you, depending on how much you and your gear weigh, in roughly descending order of preference, based on the top of my head and what’s listed in the classifieds: WildFire*, Osprey*, SRT, Yellowstone Solo*, Mohawk Solo 13* or 14*, FlashFire, Blackhawk Shadow 13* or other lengths, Merlin II*, Wilderness, Moccasin, Independence, Morningstar, Freedom Solo, Courier, Guide, Magic*, Shearwater, Rendezvous, Prism*, Penobscot*, Prospector, Solo Plus, Old Town Pack. My list generally prefers short boats over long, narrow over wide, light over heavy. An asterisk means I have paddled one for at least a few days. I know something about all the models I listed, and there are many suitable models that I know nothing about.
And now for the questions…
Your original post specified class I and rare class II, always pool-and-drop. If you mean drop-and-pool-and-bail, then repeat, then just about any non-racing boat will do the job. In that case, I think many of the other posters are exaggerating your need for a specialized whitewater boat, probably because they are whitewater enthusiasts and are reading their preferences into your request. My philosophy is to buy a boat that is very good for what I do most, and barely adequate for some of the more extreme things I do. For the rest of the extreme things, I either decide not to do them, or I borrow or rent another boat. If you buy that philosophy, and if I read your needs correctly, then any solo boat in the tripping or touring or even day-boat categories will do; you don’t need a specialized river-tripping or whitewater boat.
Three issues that you haven’t addressed here:
Your original post said that you will be on log-strewn rivers. How do you deal with the logs when you can’t go under or around, and have to go over? If you pack heavy and you aren’t willing to unload the boat, lift the boat over, load the boat, and relaunch, then you don’t want the very lightest-weight boats. They can’t handle the stresses. That said, you can still get a boat that is quite light, if you pack light and are careful. I have slid my graphite-and-kevlar boat up or down many beaver dams, loaded, without problem – but carefully, carefully, making sure not to stress any small area of the fabric very much.
You haven’t mentioned wind. Are you going to be paddling across any wide open spaces, where wind and the waves it kicks up are an issue?
You haven’t responded on the issue of how heavy you pack for the week-long trips. We get people here who want to put two dogs, two kids, and a gas-powered generator in a 12-foot boat. Please give us some idea of how much stuff you want to carry and how big you are.
I hope all this text helps.
Mark
Great input…
– Last Updated: Jul-09-11 7:36 PM EST –
You are right, I'm sure that if I were to pick up a dedicated solo boat that my Blue Hole would more than likely sit for much the time. Would it get sold? Not likely. Just nice to have a tandem around to lend out and things like that, it's not like it's resale is a life changer and it's a good rough water boat.
Also, like you recommend, I'm kinda in the "stop thinkin so much, find a deal on a solo and go paddling" camp.
I do find it interesting that you mention a couple boats that in reality aren't much different than the Blue Hole. Maybe not as tall on the ends and as deep in the middle but close. Namely the guide, rendezvous and prospector. I'm sure each has it's own handling traits but for length, height, width and maybe rocker they're pretty similar.
When I say WW for me I'm not talking much. Maybe a drop, maybe a short rock garden that requires a move or two to get through followed by quite water. The busiest water I encounter is when the water is high and I'll venture out to a point but if it's too high(flood stage)I stay at home. As for the logs and such, I get lazy. While I rarely encounter obstacles that require me to get out of the canoe when I do it's drag if I can, unload only if I have to portage. As for wind....yes and has been my main issue with the Blue Hole. If it were left to it's own devices it wouldn't be uncommon for the Blue Hole to blow up stream when I get a head wind and in lakes.....You get the picture and days when the wind isn't blowing over 10-20 mph are rare. Still most of my flat water is lakes in the 100-1000 acre range and if the winds bad enough for whitecaps I usually stay home. Not so much for the safety issue but more so because of the handling of the Blue Hole.
Packing: Kinda varies. I've been known to do ultra light, 3 day/2 night trips where my pack is 20lbs and on a recent BWCA trip my share of the gear and food came in at about 60lbs. That included food for 2, sleeping pad, sleeping bag, tarp, fishing gear, clothes, personal items, t-rest pillow, firestarting kit(s), nomad stove and some misc things I'm sure I've forgot. Me? I'm at 180 today, tomarrow may be different.
I will add that because the Blue Hole isn't likely to be going anywhere that I'm more inclined to get a decent flatwater solo even though I like a lively canoe like the Argosy better. With the Blue Hole I got a rough water boat don't need a second one around. But I'm just trying to figure out where my canoe and similar ones fit into y'all's idea for a one boat armada. While I've been looking around I've run into quite a few comments about the Prospector 15 making a better than average solo boat when set up right and I'm not seeing much differnece between it and the Blue Hole so it got me to thinkin (dangerous). If I'm not gaining much, I don't want another boat around.Simple as that but it seems to me that you think I'd be gaining a substantial amount buy going to a dedicated solo?
Hope this info helps,
Chris
My choice…
For me personally, if I could only have one boat I think it would be an SRT. I dont’ have one yet, but hope to have one soon. I believe it offers a unique combination of speed, maneuverability and ability to handle bigger whitewater that other boats in its class cannot (Wildfire, Guide, Osprey, Yellowstone Solo, etc). If you consider those boats to be in the same class, which they kind of are…but maybe aren’t. Maybe the SRT is in its own class in that regard.
However…for the original poster i think that he doesn’t need real whitewater capability so other boats in that category would all work great for him.
The one boat in the group mentioned above that may stick out would be the Guide. Great boat, but a tad slow and crappy in the wind. If he wants to paddle open water or flat water it may not be the best choice.
matt
bowler, the next question is what 30
boats would one choose to own in order to be happy in every paddling situation.
that narrows the choices
Aha, some of my guesses were wrong. Wind is an issue after all; and you probably don’t want the smallest boats I listed, but you don’t need a big boat since your load isn’t very high; and you don’t insist on the Class II since you’re keeping the Blue Hole, and you don’t need a tandem-capable boat since you’re keeping the Blue Hole. My new list is: WildFire*, Osprey*, SRT, Yellowstone Solo*, Merlin II*, RapidFire* or other DY 15-foot tripper, Wilderness, Moccasin, Independence, Magic*, Freedom Solo, Mohawk Solo 13* or 14*, Blackhawk Shadow longer than 13’, Morningstar, Courier. Plus all the ones that I’ve forgotten or never known.
I think you’ll be surprised at how much more control you have in a boat that is sized and shaped for a single paddler. After some practice on your strokes, you’ll be praying for those whitecaps, not avoiding them. The nimbleness of a short, narrow, light boat also helps when exploring the further reaches of beaver swamps, tidal marshes, supposedly unnavigable streams, and other wonderful places.
As for whether a larger solo is similar to a river-tripping tandem: I have paddled a Blue Hole only once, can’t remember the model, a tandem Royalex river tripper built heavy. I have test-paddled a (Kevlar) Rendezvous, and the two are not similar. The Rendezvous is a big, high-sided solo (which is why I removed it from the list), but it is still much easier to control than any tandem I have soloed.
If you get a composite solo boat (which I recommend), you’ll want to be careful about hitting rocks, grounding it on gravel bars, dragging along concrete launch ramps, setting it down after a portage, and lifting it over those logs. I think the performance of a composite boat makes the disadvantages worthwhile, but not everyone does.
Good luck with your decision!
Mark
My recommendations
After reading the further dialog, very nicely directed by nycmhandy, I think you would enjoy paddling a dedicated solo and should keep your Blue Hole tandem.
I’ll withdraw my personal favorite, the SRT, because I don’t think you need the WW capability or tripping depth.
To shorten the list, all of which are reasonable choices, I think you should look for a used Osprey or Wildfire. They are both very popular boats and hardly anyone who owns either of them ever says bad things.
The old Blue Hole OCA!
Man, you used to see a lot of those. Good boats. Sure recalls the old days. 25 years ago doesn’t seem that long. Of course, like many of us, I still remember BR (before royalex) when all we had was Grummans and glass. If you are a fan of Nealy’s books and recall the stories of the Haw River and Grummans being pounded out on the rocks, I was among them!
Yep, it is interesting what has happened in canoe design over the last decade. I haven’t kept up with them like kayaks. Being a larger guy (my seakayak is an Eddyline Nighthawk 175; was considering a Necky Pinta before they were discontinued) I trend toward boats most paddlers would not consider, nor would they be suitable for them being designed to the 80 percentile level. Fit is important to the task, as well as what you intend to haul, or tandem on occasion or not, and what works well for me would be impossibly large for someone else solo.
Picking a canoe is a bit like a car.
It has to be able to meet its most challenging need. In your case that is the whitewater with gear (as I read your description). That may be why there is so much consideration of that aspect in the responses. If you need a truck once a year your have a truck all year.
With all the cards on the table, Your weight, the weight of your gear, and the Blue Hole you would likely keep, the picture is much clearer. If you do the whitewater with gear in the Bluehole, the use of a speedier, narrower boat is wide open. For durability Royalex and Royalite are, I think tougher than composite but the coreless and "flex