me too
get me right too. i am the same. !!!
Incidently, in looking into this I found evidence that Gore has been desperate to hang onto their market share. Part of this strategy has been
to obscure that they had to add the PU layer, and by doing so gore-tex suffers from reverse osmosis, i.e, if the outer fabric loses is DWR finish is will serious wet out, that is leak backwards losing its waterproofness. They are trying to make up for this by these offers of replacement like with Kokatat. IT is not they are generous, they are hanging onto market share.
eVent is dependent on the oleophobic treatment being 100% and holding up over time. So far it looks good that they are making a product that will do as it claims, breathe better and be durable. And it seems to me that the paper on GE making the product better may not just have been an improvement, but a NECESSARY change to make it durable and waterproof.
So man, i am totally in the camp of OK let’s see if it is what they claim. I hope so.
The Gore thing doesn’t make sense…
...nor does it match my experience with it. If the outer fabric wets out, it's backed by the PTFE membrane, which will not pass water, only vapor. I own a lot of Gore-Tex garments, most of which have less than effective DWRs (DWR is an oxymoron, IMO, as none of them are "durable") and they're waterproof whether the outer layer is wet-out or not.
As for the Gore Warranty, that has been in place for decades and it's for ALL manufacturers of Gore-Tex garments (I once sent back a North Face parka that started to delaminate and they replaced it, the only G-T failure I've experienced). Moreover, Gore will replace ANY Gore-Tex garment that suffers a fabric failure. If the manufacturer is out of business, they will replace it with a comparable garment from another manufacturer. There is nothing "desperate" about this, as it has been their policy almost from the beginning.
GoreTex an’ EVent causes…
catastrophic follicle failure!
http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2502915100094647494pCDVrC
Now ta find an shyster ambulance chaser.
FE
OK I will admit it, bought eVent drytop
OK, I guess there is an exception to every rule. I have NEVER been a first adopter, and have been the debunker and scientific skeptic in tech and gear world and in other worlds as well.
But getting older and wanting to resist retro grouch tendencies creeping in on me, I compromised and bought an NRS eVent dry top. It appears to be extremely well made, has a generous warranty, clear instructions regarding care, great fit, and the quality of the seams, gaskets, and accessories are absolutely in line with Kokatat and some things even better.
It also has the advantage of not needing special care, i.e., can be rejuvenated by powdered detergent in no agitator washing machine does not need revivex, etc.
I am very hard on dry suits and gear so I will thoroughly trash it and report back.
membrane contamination
gore outer layer can get contaminated and wet out causing reverse osmosis. But the most common problem is that the DWR wears out and seriously reduces the ability of the PU and membrane to breathe, making it seem as if it is leaking but really you are getting wet from your own perspiration.
Gores marketing is documented, not my bias
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gore-Tex
I am interested in this from intellectually honest place not ego, so glad to learn from you and everyone. Learning I am wrong is an opportunity. So l am enjoying this. Thanks!
REI and E vent
Speaking of E vent, I got completely soaked on a hike today, came home and happened to watch the youtube link video. It started me thinking… Maybe. But no more Event raingear on the REI site. They used to have it. Any one have an inside scoop?
license thing
REI and eVent are arranging a license agreement I saw. They are going to be producing quite allot of eVent gear.
Bryan and others here understandably thought I was speaking against Gore inc. without facts, but I practice integrity of argument and try always to get my facts straight and state where I am coming from and admit when I am mistaken.
Gore has a well documented history of very rough and tumble marketing including deliberately hiding the fact that their product does NOT use vapor transmission, and very aggressive marketing including exclusive licensing agreements. This has resulted in eVent struggling to have manufacture and distribution. eVent was bought by GE and this has resulted in eVent beginning to have the muscle to be produced and distributed.
Regardless of how effective and eVent is and or becomes, I am for fair marketing practices that do not result in our being bombarded by false and overstated claims so that we do not have the best and safest products for cold water immersion.
That’s a bit much
I don't think anyone really cares HOW Gore-Tex works as long as it DOES work as advertised. Frankly, if Gore went into deep, technical explanations, most people probably wouldn't understand it or would just roll their eyes and move on. All that really matters is that it does what Gore claims it does (keeps you dry and breathes), which I don't think anyone would dispute.
For better or worse, it's the standard against which all other waterproof/breathable fabrics are compared. While eVent seems to have plenty of test data and testimonials attesting to it's breathability, I still haven't seen any data on it's waterproofness and it hasn't been around long enough to determine its durability.
I haven't seen much in the way of warranty information, either, so I suspect that will be up to the manufacturers. Gore's warranty is ironclad and many of us have experience with it and can attest to the fact that they absolutely stand behind garments made with their products. Again, this warranty is the standard of the industry and has been for at least a couple of decades.
As for their licensing agreements, I don't have a clue as to the "exclusive" agreements you elude to, but I do know that they won't sell their fabric to just anyone and that they test and certify all garments made with their fabric to perform to their waterproofness standard. If a design doesn't pass, it doesn't make it to the market, at least not with Gore-Tex fabric in it. Once more, this is unique in the industry, AFAIK. It takes a lot of guts to enforce this type of quality standard, as it makes it really easy for manufacturers to go elsewhere for their fabrics. Considering that and the premium price of Gore-Tex products, their market share is amazing!
As I've said before, I have no stake in Gore, I'm just a happy user of their products. My point is that Gore-Tex is a known quantity, backed up by industry leading customer service. Everything else on the market is subject to question. Many fabrics have come and gone over the years, but Gore-Tex is still here. It's easy to take pot-shots at the guy on the top of the heap and make claims about marketing, unfair practices, etc., but where's the evidence of that? Where are the lawsuits or FTC complaints against them?
The bottom line is that nobody has come out with a product that's better, or at least that's been proven to be better. If eVent turns out to be a better product, I'm all for it! Choice is a GOOD thing! But frankly, the "it breathes better" schtick has gotten really old. Show me that it's as waterproof and as durable as Gore-Tex and I'll be a convert. Barring that, I think we've pretty well beaten this horse to death.
OK
OK. Sometimes two good people just need to disagree and still respect each other. That is my wish here. Good posts. Genuine thanks. I actually agree with most of what you have said. : > )
waterproofness ratings
found a chart on Sierra trading post (source data unclear) which lists the waterproofness of Gore-tex and Event and their about equal (28000 vs 30 000 mm/24 hours). That said, there's a lot more to drysuit and its use/longevity than just the fabric.
What’s needed is the PSI rating…
…as that will more accurately reflect the waterproofness of the fabric in use. This rating is important for a dry suit, since you’re sitting on a wet seat most of the time, plus your PFD and spray skirt will create pressure on the fabric.
PSI vs mm/24hours
I hear you but good luck finding the direct comparisons. My understanding (which could be wrong) is that the waterproof ratings in mm/24 hours are really pressure rating (as are the PSI waterproof ratings). I.e. the fabric will prevent water penetration equal to a column 28, or 30, meters high for 24 hours. If I remember correctly, 1 atmosphere is equal to 33 feet of water (or 10 meters) and ~14.5 PSI. So doing the math in my head the ratings in PSI should be around 45 for both fabrics.
So on the waterproof fabric technology level they’re comparable. Realistically, I’d say the nature of the fabric they’re bonded with (stiffness, wear & tear resistance, etc) would make the difference in an actual drysuit. And you can’t argue with a great warranty.
Phil
That makes more sense…
...than the explanation of it being the resistance to a given amount of rain in 24 hours. I had never seen numbers expressed that was and it really seemed pretty meaningless. Apparently the people at STP have no clue how to interpret the data they were given.
I have seen numbers for other fabrics expressed in the height of the water column, as you point out, and that's exactly the type of information that I wanted. If eVent is that good AND it breathes better, Gore-Tex has some serious competition! Now, we just need to see more garments made with it and what the warranty on them - and perhaps the fabric itself (a la Gore) - will be.