Do they really behave better?
Have you tested this, or are you assuming things. I’d paddle a Necky Manitou in ten foot seas gladly, and i’d choose it over any of their ruddered sea touring boats. Ever paddle a Coaster? Long and skinny does not ensure great seaworthiness!
Assuming like mad!
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I think I what I have in mind is rec boats designed for flat water vs. good sea boats, but have very little time in either. That Manitou looks like a much higher class of rec boat.
As noted elsewhere in the thread, my comments are coming out of my own efforts to reconcile oft-read Internet wisdom about narrower boats handling waves better with my own experience in wide, forgiving SOTs, mostly the Scupper Pro. OTOH, the Mako Millenium, which is about as squirrelly as you'd really want to get for initial stability, is really a sweet hull if you can stay with it (I mostly hack away, but get enough glimpses of what it can do to encourage me to keep hacking).
Next boat will be in the 16'x22" range and closed-deck, so I'll get a little more mainstream experience to go with my time on both dimensional fringes.
Cadence Lp?
I realized that I have seen a Cadence, though I don’t know if the one marked Lp is similar to the Formula version. Saw a Cadence Lp in a paddle group last night, had seen it a while before and forgotten. Older boat, well-built from the looks of it, little perimeter rigging compared to current boats, decks that are high compared to my Explorer but probably were extremely low some years ago compared to most North American boats, I’d guess an average beam compared to current boats and looked to be a somewhat less active hull than say a hard chined Foster boat. Formula like this but diff?
Just curious.
Purpose built/design
Different boats are designed to support different uses. The Nordkapp is notoriously tender unladen. It was designed specifically for expeditions. When heavily loaded, a Nordkapp is amnong the more stable and fastest of kayaks in textured seas.
When I’ve paddled an unloaded Nordkapp, I felt as if I was skittering around on top of the water.
It is kind of silly that so many of us are paddling expedition boats as day boats.
Exactly!
But who really markets day boats?
many, now
Some examples:
P&H (Vela)
NDK (Romany)
VCP (Avocet, Anas Acuta)
Necky (Chatham)
WS (Tempest 16)
Almost any SOF.
Day Boats
The above list has some great boats. Even better, the about 16’ crop of boats includes a lot that are really fun boats to spend time in because they have the stabilities of bigger boats with a lot more action. So if you get caught out in more than you intended the boats will handle it, but in the meantime you can have a ball with being sideways and upside down in them. We’ve paddled a bunch, currently have a Vela for me and are waiting for delivery on a Romany. (which also comes in a low volume version)
My only complaint is that an average sized woman will still find that there is some fitting to be done to get these boats on their bodies right. Even the Vela, clearly a small person’s boat, took some extra padding and moving the seat forward to get it set up for me. But it is a very fun boat, and nicely sized for shorter trips at 15’8".
Except for SOF…
… those are not what I mean by day boats.
They’re just shorter, or maybe for smaller paddlers. Maybe a bit more playful - but that would be “play boats”, which is not always the same thing as “day boats”.
They still have a lot more volume/weight/features than you need for a couple hour leisure or workout paddle. They have the same features larger as expedition/touring boats. You could easily do overnights (or weeks in them) you just couldn’t go as far as they are a bit slower.
When I say day paddling boat I mean a light weight low volume minimalist boat that has no emphasis on gear hauling (could be for play, or covering ground, or whatever - lot’s of design options). None on your list, except one-off SOFs (which are hardly commercial), really fit that.
There are lots of day boats for specialized uses: Surf Skis and race boats are examples of commercial “day boats” for open water go fast paddlers. WW boats are day boats for river running. In the sea/tour performance range the options get pretty thin.
day boat?
Greyak–would you include the BBK Valkyrie or Idun in your category of day boats? They’re pretty minimalist, low volume. You can squeeze backpacking gear in there, but they seem a lot better suited to day trips than long trips.
Yeah
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sort of. Maybe even the Recluse if it were built light enough - but at similar size and weight to my Q700 - I'd have to say no. It's all relative and I'm comparing to a Kevlar boat.
Kevlar Outer Island?
Certainly low volume and light… though not short nor playful, it is a blast to roll.
Hawks
Don’t forget the Wilderness Systems Sparrow Hawk and Arctic Hawk boats. I paddle the Arctic Hawk and find its extremely fast (18’ long), very light (40lbs KV) and fits my 6’2" even with an 11" front deck. I would imagine the sparrow hawk would also be nice if you are more normal sized (smaller). I can only imagine what that one must weight in KV.
And, I would not call these expedition boats either even though they could be packed for a couple of days.
day boat
You’re right – as much as I like my Avocet, it’s rare that I use any of the storage space except the day hatch for my typical after-work paddles on local lakes.
I’ve been considering a Pygmy Arctic Tern 14 as a day/play boat, but it’d be nice to have a bit more speed potential. Now if you were to stretch it a couple of feet, knock a bit off the beam, and cut down the aft deck…
If it had come out a bit sooner…
… I’d probably be paddling one now. As it stands, trading one 18’ x 21" Kevlar kayak for another just isn’t enough of a jump. You have to factor in that I’m already a bit spoiled.
It would be nice to be able to knock out some more roll variety more easily in an OI - but the way I have my 700 set up it pretty much rolls itself. Still quite a bit I can learn with current gear.
If I want to get into a wider roll repertoire I’ll just be that much more motivated to start a SOF.
Now if there were an OI sport with @ a 19" beam, true ocean cockpit, and a bit more length (I’m not too worried about turning - being used to a 17 1/2’ LWL) and I might sell the 700 AND give up the SOF idea.
My boat has outstanding initial stabilit
y. Absolutely no secondary stability, but is phenomenal in wavy conditions and a beamy sea.
Of course she is an inflatable, and before you poo-poo her, you should know I’ve owned and paddled both SINKS and SOTS.
She works just great for the kind of paddling i do: rough water play, kayak camping, and quick get aways (just hangging out in the middle of the bay). Hey, I’m not going to win any races with my boat – but then i’d like to see one of you SINKers lie down and rest in your boat.
stability
the Prospector 16’ has great initail and final stability