I don't know of any outfitter that insists on a cert per se. It's more that a cert may function in lieu of a demonstration of skills in this type of a case. Where an uncertified paddler may be asked to demonstrate their skills, certain assumptions can be drawn by the outfitter if the renter has some appropriate certification and the outfitter recognizes and believes that such a certification satisfies their need for due diligence.
At any rate, all of this has little to do with the nature of the structured learning in general or the 3* standards specifically.
Not clear to me "I would be interested to hear what skills you feel are not appropriate for WW "
I maybe missing the point (or spirit) of the requirements. But towing and eskimo rescue are almost never done for WW. I wonder how many WW paddlers, however accomplished, know how to do that. Could such a WW paddler pass a 3* accessment?
If we’re talking about rescue, maybe some rope work should be included since that’s how WW rescues are based?
For the most part many of my tours are done in doubles (Necky Amaruks). WHen I get people who request a single kayak, I ask straight out have they done any courses…if the answer is no, that doesn’t mean a thing. Anyone who i have asked to demonstrate certain techniques, before departing the beach area, has been more than happy ( at least the ones who had teh skills). On the other hand I have seen paddlers capsize TWICE within 100ft of our put in. These paddlers I recommend to take the double.
I am not saying certs are mandatory…but why not ask? In my expierence, the only people who have gotten upset, were upset because they didn’t have the skills to be heading to sea in a single kayak. There are other outfitters who may take that person out…and thats fine.
I have been fooled once, but paddlers lying about their expierence, which ended in me having to do a rescue.
Anyone who has the abilities prepared to display, have only been too happy to demonstrate.
Neither is needed very often. Our group teaches bow rescues to everyone but in actual fact it would be unusual for someone to be in position to do a bow rescue in WW. If someone were to flip on a strong eddy line and someone else were in the eddy I could see it would be useful if the person who flipped missed their roll. Towing in the sense of assisting a paddler who is still in their boat is useless on WW. Sometimes towing an empty boat to get it to a place where a paddler can access it is done but I assume that is not what is meant. Using a throw rope is much more relevant.
Hiding Boats… I didn’t promise not to buy any more boats, I just admitted we did not have room to store another one until I built a new rack system. That never happened this winter.
So Tsunamichuck and I came up with a plan for me to buy the VCP Skerrey on the sly. While Kathy was working on Saturday, I would go up to Sacramento and pay for the Skerrey. Then Chuck would pick it up and take it to Reno on his way back from the Golden Gate during the week.
I entered the sellers name under “Skerrey” in my cell phone. He called at home and Kathy saw the name on cell phone. She asked:
“Who is this Skerrey bitch?” I figured I had better just confess to buying another boat…
I got asked by an Irish Guide if I had any BCU certifications for my guided trip in Ireland.
It didn’t seem out of whack to me.
Considering the circumstances I wouldn’t say it was out of line. We had a great experience with the trip despite the conditions. He knew, based on my four star rating, that I was pretty solid and that my wife needed alot of minding and encouragement.
WW "towing" The “towing” I’ve seen done most often for WW are a swimmer hanging on to the stern of the towing boat with one hand and his/her own boat the other! ;o)
Yep. We even practice that in pool sessions. As well as swimming with your boat in “tow”. If you want an ACA cert for WW you have to demonstrate self rescue, usually in class III water.
Good! Such hijacks often yield good stuff. This one actually speaks to certs having some usefulness beyond individual personal achievement monitoring and tribe building.
Outside of such real world applications a cert only indicates someone has gone through structured training that was designed to lead to the cert! A bit circular, and a bit too tidy left at that.
I don’t think it’s at all out of line (for professional outfitters or casual paddling partners) to ask about skills. Quite the opposite! A cert may save some questioning. However, I also don’t think having a specific rating from a specific system should ever replace a face to face interview/demonstration as appropriate.
Only allowing those with specific certs to paddle somewhere/something would not likely be very economically feasible (as already noted), but outfitters can do as they see fit. Their risk, their choice.
Might be nice to have a rating/cert that would help with easy access (“membership has it’s privileges”), but then we’re back to the discussion about if all 3 and 4 stars are really equivalent in all areas. If I were running trips in the NW or NE and had a warm water 3 star show, I might favor a more direct evaluation method. Seems best to evaluate anyone as is on the day in question - not based on something done some other time, some other place.
I doubt any really poor paddlers can talk a really good game, but if for some reason the questions don’t sort them out, a quick demo should.
Personally, I’d be more concerned about people knowing how to dress for conditions. I can practice everything but that here. That is that same whether training on my own or in the BCU structure in FL. Sure, I know about layering, and dry suits, etc. That’s not the same as having spent time in them in cold water, practicing rescues with all that on, etc.
Another hijack? If so, feel free to ignore or take up elsewhere.
Very good posting Greyak That was something I failed to mention in my posting. When Guiding people in singles, I require a farmer john wetsuit with a light paddling jacket. This is a jacket ( not a dry top) with seals on the arms and neck. I don’t personally do rentals. But, it being that I work in an ecological reserve, with easy access to whales…I see many paddlers…from all over the USA and Canada…
Dressing for their trips on the water seems to be a commonly ignored practice. I thought about it, and maybe tried to view it as paddlers from warmer climate, not used to colder waters. But I quickly learned that didn’t hold true. I found the mistake on ‘exposure’ protection to be all to common to local paddlers, knowing full well that we have cold waters. (Labrador Current is always cold!!)
One would think that that mistake is easily avoidable…but as time goes on, we discover that there are quite a few to grasp the concept of self protection.
Sorry for the ramble…but he (greyak) made a very good point.
The Other "Missing Factor…" is the physical conditioning. This sport is of skills and physical conditioning, especially if you move in the conditions and distances.
It’s quite possible for someone to be highly certified but be not in tip top physical shape for a particular venue. It happens. Quite frankly, most of us are weekend paddlers. Even if one were to get out twice a weekend, that’s not sufficient to take on some of the more challenging paddles because the physical conditioning is just not there.
For example, with surf, I bump into long boat paddlers who don’t realize how challenging and the conditioning needed to get past a big break zone. This is not stuff of LSD (long steady distance) but explosive, all out sprinting. You throw a couple tumbles by big waves and several rolls in the ice cold, washing machine, you really begin to feel the burn and the “spirit” draining away.
Having skills is good but one have better darn seriously work out during the week too to make sure one has the aerobic and anaerobic capacity to deal with challenging stuff.
Skills are always needed. However, without physical conditioning, all of those starts become worthless. Most mistakes which lead to troubles are committed when one energy faints. With almost 70% of the population overweight, paddlers should be thinking more about physical conditioning than fancy starts.
An experiment This summer Ian was laughing at me because I need to take a breather after I get to the outside before I start surfing, so I can catch my breath and let my heart rate calm down a bit, if its been a demanding paddle out. This year at college he has been doing a lot of weight training and running and has really got into measuring his resting heart rate, and heart rate during different kinds of exercise. His data from yesterday…
resting heart rate 58
paddling out through a nasty break 98
jogging up a set of stairs up a hundred foot bluff with a 40 lb kayak 120
Paddling out with a 10 foot dumping wave coming down on top of him 140
I figure mine must have been about 220 for the same wave…
Yes Big downwind runs in a ski are the same way. In shape, you’re out in front of the waves and flying, loving life. Out of shape, you’re wallowing around, water up around your midsection as you miss the drop and hang on the top of the wave, bobbing and bracing and working like crazy to stay upright and get the boat moving again. Not nearly as much fun, and not nearly as safe, either.
An interesting consideration for rentals is “who is responsible”.
In some states if the outfitter asks questions the outfitter takes on responsibility. The more questions the more responsibility. Guy comes in to rent a kayak. Outfitter asks many questions. Kayaker has accident and is seriously hurt or drowns. Family says the outfitter asked questions and rented the boat to my family member so this means the outfitter thought the renter was competent to paddle in the area. The accident proves the renter was not competent and the outfitter should have known this from the interview and or demonstration so the outfitter is at fault, according to the family and their lawyer.
If the outfitter asks no questions there is often little if any liability on the outfitter. I go to a ski resort and buy a lift ticket. No one asks me when I buy the ticket or get on the lift if I am a competent skier. The responsibility is mine and mine alone. Several times a friend and I have gone to Moab to bike. I rent a bike as mine is not suitable for the conditions there. No one asks me if I am capable of riding some of the harder routes, I am not, they just rent me the bike. For those of you that have never ridden in the slick rock area do not laugh at this--there are some rides there that can cause serious injury or death. The responsibility is mine and mine alone. The only liability on the store is the condition of the bike and I would be hard pressed, if there was an accident, that I had not caused the damage to the bike myself.
I am not saying this is good or bad. It is just that the stores and or outfitters seem to be cursed if they do or they don’t. They ask questions to weed out people that should not be renting and their liability, depending on the state will be higher, if they do not ask questions they have a whole lot of other problems they might end up dealing with.
These are questions about skill. God forbid if the outfitter asks the renter about the shape they are in.
same thing with running on race day, you can always tell who put in the training and who didn’t. Around mile 19, those who did not put in the training are sitting on the curb wishing they hadn’t shorted themselves on their long runs.
rental Personally, I think the responsibility SHOULD BE on the renter anyway. So yes, I wish kayak rental places should be like mtn bike rentals, no question ask about the renter’s ability.
Ideally, an outfitter can probably rent the boat to “anyone” to paddle inside the bay right in front of the launch. Again, no question ask (except perhaps the ability to swim?).
Experienced paddlers who wishes to go outside or to other places for a long day can ask the outfitter about the condition outside and then the outfitter can in turn ask question to evaluate the renter’s ability. So if the paddler doesn’t return, there’s no one there to contradict the outfitter’s “no question asked, no going outside” policy. Usually, the family (who might wish to sue) are not there during the rental “questioning” period.
Nice as that sounds, I doubt it works all the time. From what I heard, ski resorts do get sued when accident happens. So the “lift ticket/ski rental without question” doesn’t really work that well after all. The only reason they’re still in business is they’re already in it long BEFORE this lawsuit era got started. Kayaking and kayak rental, unfortunately, came too late. It’s being perceived as an extreme sport. That’s what will stick. Too bad for the outfiters, too bad for the sport itself, too bad for all of us. But until the atmosphere changes, it won’t get as popular as skiing. Or ever at all?
When you can’t make a paddler take responsibility for himself…
Set the blame on someone else.
This appears to be whats coming out of this stream.
Its awful simple to sit back and tell guides that we have to ask this and we have to ask that.
Fact of the matter - People Lie.
I have seen this time and time again. The first time I dealt with a paddler presenting himself as something he was not…resulted in him taking a spill into the ocean and begging and crying for help (this is a scene I never wish to view again).
If you come to my outfit and tell me that you’re a BCU 1, 2, 3, 4 or five - I want you to prove it. After that…the day and the boat is in your hands.
A BCU system ( or ACA or CRCA) doesn’t necessarily provide accurate measurements of one’s ability.
I find it funny that people come to me and misrepresenting themselves decide they wish to take on the ocean regardless.
Given that I have taken many paddlers way above me in skill ( both with certs and without), they chose to utilize a guide for local info regarding environment and history. These two paddlers ( in this case), one could provide the documentation of his BCU 4 star. The other addmittedly told me he had very little sea kayak expeirence - but had been a ww kayakers for over 25yrs. He gladly hopped in the boat and displayed braces and rolls for me.
I was happy to send them off, with a few cautionary words regarding the dominant winds in our area. ( 9 hours later, they were back) in great spirits.