No
Wrong side
I generally find that when I capsize in WW I’m generally on the wrong side to facilitate rolling. (throwing salt over my shoulder, knocking on wood)So far I’ve not had to swim in years but have had to switch sides under water on numerous occasions to make the roll work - like in holes.
I also notice that you mention the set up position in teaching new students. I didn’t say anything about having them rolling towards the paddle and making the 360 deg roll as I don’t think that it’s the most valuable.
I believe that you should be able to roll up from any position. Most people, however, require the setup in some form or another. I know that there are people out there like EJ or Maligiaq or Cheri Perry that can hit their roll from any position, even with a large brick in their hand instead of a paddle, but that isn’t most paddlers. I feel satisfied if I can get student to turn a pool roll into a combat roll, even if it requires a setup.
Regarding the different paddles out there, use what works for you.
My only point has been that there is what works and what is appropriate. I can run rivers in hand paddles. In the 50’s or 60’s, I forget when precisely, there were two guys who swam the length of the Grand Canyon. In the 70’s there was a man who climbed the 3rd Flatiron in Boulder in rollerskates. These are all examples of things that work, but may not be appropriate. I would extend this to equipment selection. My touring boat may not be appropriate for rock gardening. I can play that game all day long, but I think you get the point.
Don’t think we disagree
If you learn to roll by putting the paddle in the setup position and rotating around before you execute the roll and continue to practice that, then when you are in a combat situation you will do what you have practiced. So it seems you are headed for a capsize and what do you do? Put the paddle in the setup position, rotate around, and roll up. What should you do? Brace and avoid the roll. All of this is separate from going to a setup position once you are upside down. That is how most people roll and I have no problem with it. But, it is even better if you can go on from there to a roll that does not require a traditional setup. You get up faster and it is safer. And it is not that hard to learn once you can go from upside down to setup to roll up.
for clarity purposes
what would you want them to do?
Here I act as if I was hit by a wave
Here I act as if I was bumped by a whale
Here I act as if I dropped my paddle into the water and capsized while trying to reach it
Here I act as if I was hit by a surfer on the wave …
and so on and so on …
The easiest thing to do …
… is to capsize in a variety of ways. Put your paddle blade in the water up near your feet and capsize. Put it in the water out to the side like the middle of a forward stroke. Do a brace but let it fail. And so on. Or you can do what EJ suggests and have someone dump you over. Or put your paddle in the water out to the side at different downward angles and come up without setting up. Capsize on one side and move to the other to roll up. Notice that I am taking your silly question seriously.
exactly
– Last Updated: May-23-12 1:04 PM EST –
Once I could roll from a setup position, I started capsizing in a variety of positions -- while paddling, on the back deck, missed brace, paddle in one hand, no paddle(spare in deck lines), etc.
The next step was to find moving water that would capsize me in a safe place, such as a friendly wave or hole just above a large pool. I knew I'd be flipped, but exactly how was somewhat random. Fun to do and fun for spectators.
Stretching it?
"when you are in a combat situation you will do what you have practiced. So it seems you are headed for a capsize and what do you do? Put the paddle in the setup position, rotate around, and roll up. "
Frankly, I’ve never seen anyone putting their paddle in the setup position BEFORE they capsize!
While I totally agree it’s best to be able to roll up without setup because it’s faster. It’s NOT because they don’t brace without being able to roll without setup!
The ability (or the lack of) to roll without setup has nothing to do with whether they can (or would) brace or not.
Training your body sense
– Last Updated: May-23-12 1:43 PM EST –
If you have learned a bunch of "special" rolls your sense of body position relative to the surroundings will have become developed well enough that a combat roll from "no set-up" should come naturally.
This coming from someone who only learned the "parlor tricks" of balance brace and butterfly roll. You CAN train your brain and body to do things that were formerly impossible or awkward. There's no doubt in my mind that working these basic moves helped me get a roll that worked in unplanned capsizes.
If you've seen the TITS DVD where Dubside and Warren go to Deception Pass, relisten to Warren's statement why he thinks Dubside could handle his first time in that kind of water as if he'd been doing it for years.
I feel like a political candidate
You mostly just twisted around what I said. So for the record, I have indeed seen people place the paddle in the setup position prior to a capsize when a brace would have worked. I also have a video from a well known person who tells students to do just that. But I am tired of the issue. EJ made the same argument as mine in his bracing and rolling DVD. Go argue with him.
You’re confusing correlation with causal
– Last Updated: May-23-12 4:59 PM EST –
Just because two things are seen together some of the time, it doesn't follows one is the cause of the other.
It could entirely be coincidental. There're plenty of legitimate reason why the paddle HAPPENS to be on that side of the boat (for example, he just took a stroke on that side). It doesn't have to be BECAUSE he's setting up for the inevitable roll.
And just because EJ say so doesn't make it right. He maybe the best paddler around. But that doesn't guarantee he's flawless in reasoning.
OTOH
EJ is probably more informed and experienced in providing successful instruction than 99% of this forum.
must I clarify?
I understand the various way one might train when rolling. I was just referring to the notion that just because someone creates a video of themselves rolling and uploads it to YouTube it does not mean that everyone rolls that way. But for clarity purposes it is a standard procedure to start from a setup position.
Unless, of course, you want to start acting out various situation when you might be forced to roll. Sort of paddling version of masterpiece theatre…
The insinuation that because people with Greenland sticks tape themselves rolling from the setup position means that greenland users can not roll during actual emergency (not from setup position) is just juvenile.
ROFL
Well, yes, you hit the nail on the head!
A good roll executed perfectly is aesthetically pleasing, some athletic ability is required. Doing many rolls in a row will require both athletic conditioning and intestinal fortitude.
One could venture that the basic repertoire of Greenland rolls is a bit larger than what the non-Greenland style paddler would be used to.
I am not a follower of the style, but find the rolls useful for both body positioning and motion.
I believe that I happened to use, probably, 4 G-style rolls in real life - the position that my body and paddle ended up in did mimic a setup for a few “standard” rolls. Since I had practiced them quite a bit, coming up did not require additional positioning of paddle into one of the prescribed Euro style positions. This resulted in reducing the time spent under water.
Anyways - failed roll is, usually, indication of shortcomings in the technique. It was worth trying to figure out why a particular roll fails since the success very often lead to better rolling all over. That said, some of G-style rolls will require a purpose built kayak.
No insinuation intended or said
To clarify, rolling after a capsize when you are not in the setup position to start requires practice. And that is true whether you are using a GP or a Euro or whatever.