Is there a roll that will work for me?

Yes. Smaller One
She was like about 5’4" and 110 lbs soaking wet. Probably about the same proportionally to Lyons at over 6’ and 200 plus in the bigger one.



I taught myself ot roll in my CapeLookout, also 23.5". Not the best vehicle for it but that’s the one I had when I wanted to learn to roll.



sing

If You Can Edge
the boat with just your hips then you likely can hip snap. Remember the C2C component involves making a “C” with the body to look at at the sky in the setup, and then the hip snap to make the boat come up is transitioning quickly to the opposing “C” where your head is down and looking to the bottom.



When you’re upright in the boat and edging the boat side to side, it’s akin to doing a C2C motion, though the head is not as actively involved as would be in a C2C (sweep to C2C) roll.



sing

C to C
C To C versus Sweep…



I originally learned how to do the C to C and was then told the sweep roll is more applicable to sea kayaks…so I tried making the transition and I could barely learn how to effectively do the sweep roll.



I became so confused and went back to the C to C, further complicating things because of the failures associated with learning the sweep…



So I decided to stay with what I know best and started practicing the C to C and finally got it back…



QUESTION: What are your opinions on this? Should I just stick with the C to C if I’m going to be able to count on executing it reliably, or should I still learn how to sweep?



I just feel that I’m finally developing some muscle memory with my C to C and I don’t want to screw it up again?

C-C v. Extended
Years ago when I could actually roll decently I used the extended paddle roll on my kayaks. I could roll a folbot and a single canoe without quite tearing my arms off. I’m pretty rusty on this stuff at the moment.



But



I watched a friend doing C-C rolls with his dinky Greenland paddle and my broader Greenland paddle. No trouble at all for him (he actually practices). Seemed to be quick and very useful. I noticed that the sweep got him almost nothing except stability and setup. The snap was what worked. Almost like a short paddle put across roll. Boat came up easily.



Once the long blade starts moving down and generating a vortex it really seems to provide all the support needed. This was a bit of a surprise. 15 years ago I worked on getting the roll started during the sweep with lots of lift. My friends semi-brute-force approach seems lots easier to pull off!

Probably using both knees
When the boat doesn’t rotate using the rolling knee you are almost certainly keeping your other knee engaged. Try the same exercise you did but keep your head on your hands (i.e., don’t try to come up) and simply rotate the boat slowly over on top of you and then reverse the motion. The boat will rotate back and forth. You are now doing a hip snap. Once you get that going increase the speed a bit. Continue to increase the speed until you are rotating the boat as fast as you can. Keep your head down through all this. When you can “snap” the boat around go ahead and go all the way to up (and be sure not to lift your head off your shoulder).

I’m no expert but…
Usual advice is to learn one roll to the point that it is reliable for you before adding others. Once you have one down, it is easier to learn others because you always have a safety to go back to. If your muscle memory was not set in the CtoC before you started trying the sweep, I’d personally guess it was too soon to try adding a new one.



A sweep roll also employs a hip snap if done the way I have been shown, the diff is that the hip snap starts a little sooner and can be less robust than is usually desired in the CtoC. If you were having trouble with the sweep, it suggests to me that your timing and paddle angles were still in need of work when you tried that. I’d bet you encountered a persistently diving paddle or kept forgetting to snap at the right time, yes? If you nail down your ability to manage that in the CtoC, you’ll be able keep those parts working right in a sweep roll.



As to which is better for sea kayaking… for a loaded expedition boat, you need a slower roll. There may be an argument that the sweep roll facilitates that better, though I’m not sure I’d agree. But if you are trying to roll up in waves, I can’t imagine why the CtoC wouldn’t be better because it is less affected by a water surface that is heaving up and down than a full sweep roll. There is likely a good a reason that it is the more common roll for WW kayakers.



Probably the best rolls to have for sea kayaking are the storm roll and an effective back deck roll - though since I don’t have either of them yet I haven’t had a chance to test that theory.

Backdeck Roll

– Last Updated: Jun-14-05 1:13 PM EST –

does not work (at least for me) in a sea kayak. The long boat rolls up too slow and the inboard blade then tends to bang into the gunwale, killing the roll. A reverse Greenland sweep is a whole other story since one is holding an extended paddle. A Styr roll also works because it's a high brace roll. I sweep forward to 90 degrees and high brace up, as would a C2C roll.

sing

Thanks Sing
My plans for July are to head for the mouth of the cove at least every other day where we stay in Maine, and see what a mess I can make of things in lumpy stuff. At least on my onside - I might not like my offside hip snap enough for other than flat by then. Part of what I want to do is practice coming up from less convenient postions, so your advice is quite well timed.

cool
thanks for the feedback…



I actually went out tonight for awhile with my wife and practiced my C to C for about an hour. I could feel that I was really developing the good muscle memory that I’ve been looking for.



It’s just funny how people adapt to different styles of rolling…I couldn’t get a decent sweep roll for the life of me, but I was nailing my C to C’s…likewise my wife can’t C to C, but she can sweep roll effortlessly, over and over.

Depends…
My extended paddle sweep roll ends up on my back deck (low decked boat) and I almost fall asleep doing it. Funny, but I get so relaxed that its a wonder I don’t take a nap down there. I guess its because I am so sure of it that I don’t hurry up, make jerky movements and have only two rolling key thoughts in my head, “engage the knee” and “lay back”.



Now, when I do a C to C - I tend to lose my “smooth and slow” and get all jerky and in a hurry!! What is up with that@??? Of course, once I rush myself then my form breaks down, I raise my head, etc and fail on the attempt. (1 fail for every two successes) Then once I fail it I simply hang upside down, adjust my paddle to extended position, then calmy, slowly do the sweep and layback…voila…



Should I keep trying on my C to C as it seems to be much quicker when I nail it?



It depends…eh?

Different people, different rolls
Yeah, the rolls do seem to suit different physical types (paddler AND boat) and personalities.



Have you both tried the EJ style modification of the C to C with a layback finish, or the sweep roll with an upright finish?



I’m probably sloppy as I see more similarities than differences - but I sweep more than anything.

well
It’s kinda different with me,I actually found out this evening that when I continued doing the C to C…I ended up tucking forward in the finish with my head down…fairly naturally.



I found I did this when I really concentrated on tucking my armpit/torso into the boat when I wrapped up for the roll. Then, when I initiated a strong hipsnap, it’s almost as if I stayed in that protected tucked position.