kayak buying advice needed

My Wife
I have a foot in height and about 80lbs in weight on my not particularly athletic wife and I am much fitter than she is. In our kayaks I can paddle faster than she can and that’s about where it ends. I don’t mind admitting that she has better control (women have a lower COG which helps) and balance than I do, and she has a much smoother and more efficient forward stroke than I do. Paddling a kayak is not about arms and shoulder strength, it’s about torso rotation, using your entire body and overall efficiency.



Just to add to all the (excellent) advice above, don’t be put off by plastic (polyethylene) kayaks. They may be heavier and less expensive than fiberglass and carbon but they are sturdier. I have a fiberglass/Kevlar boat and a poly one. The poly kayak gets the nod for rocky shores and boulder strewn rivers.

We Can Talk… Maybe… Some.

– Last Updated: Nov-07-15 4:24 PM EST –

I'm a bike person. You will rarely get the speed thrill out of a kayak that you get from a bike. Surfing maybe.

Don't buy too much kayak. If you feel like you're paddling a boat and the boat acts like a bobber it's not right. If you feel like the kayak is an extension of you; like you're wearing it, it's the right boat. In short, buy as little boat (volume) as is necessary.

Yes, try the Wilderness Systems Tempest and the Dagger Alchemy. Don't forget; the seats can be moved back in these boats. You move your saddle on the bike. Move the seat in a kayak. Lower volume boat with the seat moved back. Check it out.

One quick comment about boat design
A few people have already commented on what you said about the Pungo 140, “very fast and very stable”. I’ll add something to that. A boat that is “very stable”, without exception, will NOT be fast. I’m sure it seemed fast, and others have pointed out why.



There’s no shame in making wrong assumptions at this stage of the game. You have to start somewhere, and someone gave really good advice when they suggested you spend the winter learning about the pluses and minuses of different types of boats. Every boat is a compromise.

Identify boat’s specific use
And because every boat is a compromise, I believe it is important to be objective about how the boat will be used.



There is nothing at all “wrong” about a Pungo. I think it is a very good choice for protected water fishing. The high primary stability allows a fisherman to cast and play a fish. I had one and used it for just fishing protected coves. It had so much primary stability that i could stand in it to sight cast. My sea kayaks would have been a poor choice for that use. I sold the Pungo to a friend who used it to get to his duck blind - with a lab and all his decoys. It was a good choice for that purpose as well.



I recently bought a lightly used Venture Easky 15 (rope skeg, no rudder)for $500 in a private sale. This boat has a longer cockpit than my sea kayaks and will be easier for a 60 year old who has lost some flexibility in his knees, to quickly and safely exit the boat in the surf on sandy beaches. It will be used to access fossil hunting sites in Chesapeake Bay that have no (or no legal)land access. My usage of the boat in this instance is determined by the need to get to a specific place.

There are exceptions
If you haven’t paddled a Novus Composits sea kayak then maybe you haven’t experienced super stable and fast in the same boat. There are others that I would put in the same category; such as the Current Designs Caribou and Isle, several of the Valley and P&H boats, Eddyline Raven, NDK Explorer, etc., etc.



If you want to take the dog out on the water, you might want to consider a canoe, which you should be able to find for $100, or so.



By all means, take your time and really explore and lerarn what a real sea kayak is all about. There are a bunch of good ones and a few really good ones and just for starters, check out the NC Kayaks (nckayaks.com), Valley Nordkapp and Etain, P&H Cetus, Eddyline Raven, Tiderace and Current Designs.



None of the above boats fit your $1200 budget unless you find a deal on a used boat like my buddy got, but if you are serious about getting into the sport, believe me, you will spend a lot more than $1200 sooner, or later.

Don’t forget you need a gray thing
Pammy140 can assist you.

They now have,
…carbon fiber Gray Things. Very cool.

pam140?
Having been away from pnet for a few years, I’d completely forgotten about pamlico140. I hope his experience on this forum reminds us to be kind to others who may be new to the sport.

big water and dog
big water=waves of largesse. I have a sea canoe nearly 18 feet long with a spray cover.



But no way is my Golden going to go with me on Lake Superior… The last thing I need is a moving dog nor a dog to pull back in the boat after a self rescue.



Do you bike with your dog? If not why?

I’m talking “stable like a Pungo”, …

– Last Updated: Nov-07-15 2:44 PM EST –

... in case you didn't pick up on that. As someone else pointed out, standing up in a Pungo 140 while casting a fishing rod is something almost any person of moderate weight can do, but I rather doubt that's something you'd recommend with the boat you named as being an exception to my association between 'very stable' and 'slow'. It seems to me that you that you are using the word "stable" in the way that an experienced sea kayaker (like you) would use the word, and not in the way a beginner would be expected to feel about a rec boat that's very wide and very flat on the bottom. Let's not start denying laws of physics here.

Oh, and I don't suppose you are much of a connoisseur of canoes, but I wouldn't wish a $100 canoe on anybody!

Wilderness systems
In your price range you might find a used Wilderness systems Zephyr 160 or Tempest 170 in plastic. With either of these boats you should be able to learn your beginning level rolls and rescues and it sounds like you are already to win the local races with them. I think a decent intermediate goal for fitness is 10 miles in less than two hours in these boats. The intermediate skills are highly recommended before you go in the ocean/surf alone and are the Level 3 skills on the ACA website.



If you want to play in the surf with beginner skills, I highly recommend a sit on top and some instruction.

Canada
If your sights are set on big Canadian waters, many of them are quite cold year round and will require an investment in proper clothing. The cost of your boat is only the first expense in kayaking. Another consideration you have to account for is hauling (I presume that as a cyclist you have a decent roof rack so you are in better shape that most new paddlers).

thanks for the replies
Ok so thanks for the advice



Let me clarify a little bit more.



I’m athletic and kind of a natural one so I have great natural grit and mind set to exercise. Every time I go out exercising I get the natural high.



I have a Lemond carbon fiber/ti bike that I spend around $4000 on back in 2006 and they don’t make the bike anymore because Trek dropped the brand.



I will never give up ultra distance cycling but want to do other things now that I’m close to retirement like kayaking, backpacking and setting up a base camp with a kayak. I live here in rural Pa. with really no water around me. The only large bodies of water around me are Cordous State Park, Shawnee State Park and Raystown dam which you probably couldn’t get me on with a bet because of all the power boats there. The two State Parks have huge bodies of water there and would be nice to kayak on. I would be using the kayak to go out on a date with someone that probably doesn’t kayak much and then when I wanted to just go out and enjoy the water I could use it for that. I don’t see myself racing as I enjoy the bike racing enough that I don’t see myself doing that but then they never say never. It would be a stretch for me to go to Canada of any other big waters like any of the Great Lakes.



The reason I didn’t want to go over the $1200 purchase limit is I really don’t know how much I will use the kayak right now and no use buy a really expensive kayak and then give it away a few years down the road but I don’t think that would happen. I have a Suburu Forester with the bike rack on and just would have to buy the kit for the kayaks.



The other question I have is how hard is it to get these critters up on the rack by yourself. I will do lots of research before I buy one and thank everyone for their feedback.



Where is a good site to look for a PDF?

buying advice
I will go do much research and do some test rides in some kayaks before I decide what works for me.



I understand about fit as my race bikes fits me like a glove. The kicker is because I don’t live close to any large bodies of water there aren’t any outfitters around me. The closest one to me is Fat Jimmy’s in Bedford Pa. around 90 miles away. I will just have do some research there and also look for demo days at some of them.



I do know that I don’t want to buy a cheapo one like the big box stores sell as I wouldn’t be happy with that.

Couple of things
It would be easier and faster if I was not by myself, but that now being the case I have a device called the Amagansett Roller Loader that I can cartop a sea kayak with. And a cart or two to get the boat from where it is stored to the rear of the car.



Frankly it does get old. There is a lift system in my future, but not right now and not on a car that really will have to be replaced by spring. By then I have nursed every repaired part out of this car I can, by then we will be at replacements that are worth more than the car is. But it is doable.



As to the PFD, there are lots of good sites and good brands like Kokatat, Stohlquist, Astral NRS and probably several I am forgetting. But fit is a huge part of it. The best way to tell that is to get one on and sit in a boat with it. For kayaking you need a short compared to canoeing for ex, otherwise you end yo will be hitting parts of the seat or the coaming around you with the PFD. You also want it to be able to fit fairly tightly so no chafing but with a big shoulder opening to allow freedom for paddling.



If you can’t find a shop to try PFD’s on and even better with boats to sit in, make sure you don’t order anything that can’t be returned. You will be wearing a layer or two if you paddle into colder weather, so throw on something like a 200 wt polar fleece shell under it and see if it cinches up tightly without being too small for things to close.

How far are you from Hyde Park, NY?
If I were in PA, I’d take a road trip to http://www.the-river-connection.com/



Marshall Seddon posts here and can answer all your questions. You could demo boats, get fitted in a PFD, and even take a lesson as he’s an ACA certified kayak instructor.



Their online store is at http://stores.ebay.com/The-River-Connection



Beware of shops who call themselves outfitters but have no experienced, competent paddlers on staff.






Zurichman - a surfski might be best
Your comment about being a mid level paddler right out of the gate seems like you think paddling is mostly about fitness. And in the case of surfskis and ruddered race kayaks I’d say you are spot on. While most races I see have a very good forward stroke, few are actually skilled paddlers.



In races I’ve seen quite a few taken out because they had poor paddling skills and could not avoid visible obstacles in the river. They relied entirely on the rudder and a fabulous forward stroke. In addition their rescue skills amount to swimming to shore and dumping the water and re-starting from shore. In many cases they abandon the race if they dump, because once they are 60 seconds behind there is no chance to place in the top ten.



These are terrific paddlers, but they don’t have the beginner skills needed to paddle a river or a choppy cold lake solo. I’d say about 75% of the fastest paddlers in these races have skills below Level 2, and yet they are having a blast.



There are a lot of used surfskis and race kayaks available for about $1200, I think you might like them. I’m not very athletic and I find 14 foot kayaks a great disappointment when it comes to top speed. If you get racing sit inside boat, please get flotation bags for it and try them out.

Blue Mountain Outfitters
Sounds like you could benefit from a trip to Blue Mountain Outfitters, on the Susquehanna River in Marysville. Check them out on line. Great knowledgeable people.

you are not that far away
Sounds like you might be near Altoona? Which puts you 2 or 3 hours from me in Pittsburgh. If you ever are out this way before the rivers freeze, I’d be happy to give you a test paddle in any one (or more) of my 4 touring kayaks. I’m only 10 minutes from a launch site on the Monongahela River. We have an independent dealer, Hansel’s Performance Kayak in West Newton (southeast of the city near I-70) and an REI on the South Side (not the greatest collection of kayaks but a good selection of PFD’s, paddles and other gear.)



I’m a fan of Astral PFDs and own 3 different models of them (I keep gear to outfit 4 people since I often take friends and family out).



As for loading, I’m an average sized 65 year old female and have no trouble manually loading kayaks up to 60 pounds on my Thule racks. I have a taller SUV now but used to have an Outback and that shorter car was a piece of cake. Longer boats are actually easier than short ones because you just get one end up from the rear and then slide the boat up onto the rack, A roller loader as Celia describes makes it easier (I have one but it doesn’t work on my new car due to the stupid airfoil fin they have on the back roof.) Loading and carrying a kayak is all about using your balance and leveraging it with what strength you do have. I don’t have a garage and have to haul my boats from a walk-out basement, up a hill to my front yard and then up a flight of 6 steps to the street. I carry on my shoulder or even with my head inside the cockpit with the seat resting on my skull and grabbing the coaming (rim of the cockpit) with both hands. Having it directly over my center of balance like that is actually pretty manageable and I just tilt the bow onto the rack and walk it forward, lifting as I go. There are a number of ways to load a kayak and you may not need costly mechanical assists, so hold off on that until you have your boat and get the feel of it. All you really need for hauling if you have a rack are a couple of sturdy nylon camlock straps and about 25’ of nylon rope for the bow and stern lines to the bumpers.



Seriously, if you are ever going to be in the Pittsburgh area, send me a private email (there is a button for that in my profile and in the forum under each post.) I only work part time so I am usually around. And always happy for an excuse to haul the boats to the river.



Get yourself a copy of the book “Paddling Pennsylvania” which has excellent information on a wide variety of paddling locations in the state, with descriptions of the type of waters, launch sites and the optimal gauge levels. The state requires paddlers to buy a $10 sticker for each boat every year in order to use state-maintained launch sites, by the way. These can be obtained at Park ranger offices or on line from the DCNR. You don’t need it for non-state launches but since there is a fine for not having one at those locations it is wise to just have one every year, since you never know which are under the state’s jurisdiction.

Loading on the Roof Will Be No Problem
Most of the people on this site are 60 or older. Many of them have taken some measures to make loading their boat on the car easier, and in fact, there are some very simple things one can do to eliminate the need to lift the full weight of the boat any higher than one’s waist. Except for the fancy (and expensive) loading aids that do the lifting for you, it comes down to tilting the boat to get one end on the roof rack, then sliding it up the rest of the way. There are lots of ways to accomplish this basic process, and when the time comes, if you still need advice, you can get it.



At your body size and level of fitness, and with the roof of your car being not particularly high, you really won’t have to worry about any of this, though it will still be helpful to choose an easy method instead of resorting to lifting the whole boat onto the rack at once.