more trolling
As a general category ‘INSTRUCTOR’ you experience several positive teaching inputs. The instructor can alert you to basic flaws in your activity, try helping you correct, and urge practice.
The video route, you have a practice area, surpasses what an instructor can offer. The video is well thought out and planned, an on water session not so much.
A group on water experience plays out as peer group support prodded as that by the instructor, milked. Could be the peer group effect is the most important effect of the instructor experience…unless your paddle is held backwards.
I’m advocating the double float hip snap practice as vastly superior to anything an instructor can provide.
Buy one foam paddle float, one inflatable float and USK Horodowitch’s bracing video. With both float attached you may lean your kayak 90 degrees to the water surface, stretch out one arm on paddle shaft supported by floats !
Hip snap ! experience the hull’s edging areas, practice slap bracing then take the bladder float off and practice rolling.
Buy Ford’s video.
The instructor cannot coordinate this experience as you by yourself practicing. Instruction here is only confusing.
The double float practice is like electricity. Instructors are like before electricity.
BTW, Paddlenet sells this stuff ?
Troll Out to two float practice.
Now, THAT’S a good one
I still say it's too much drug use. But I'm getting a kick out of the imagery you provided!
Lansing
Thanks for the info. Have noted his name. The lovely Red Cedar River flows thru the MSU campus. Never kayaked it, but have walked along it plenty of times years ago.
Bingo.
You’ve precisely described what I’m looking for right now. While I’m signing up for the session with John Chase in August, I think I would benefit from paddling with an expert who could point out the errors of my present ways - before I get too set in them. I have no desire whatsoever to attempt learn how to roll my Necky Rip. I don’t think it is a kayak designed for that purpose. Capsize and re-enter it? Yes, and that will be handled in the August session, or maybe before. I have a pontoon boat with a swim ladder and a couple of neighbors who would probably be amused to see me flounder around while they sit in my pontoon, shouting encouragement. Actually, that might be fun on a hot July day.
Interesting
Though I have to wonder if “stir-the-pot” might be a better handle for you. 
Yes, videos are wonderful. By studying them I’ve learned how to move my kayak forward and backward, how to turn it, and how to move it sideways. But anyone can manage that, even without videos.
The problem with videos is the lack of creative feedback and outside analysis of the student’s movement. You can’t ask a video questions. Nor will a video tell you if you’re holding your paddle backwards.
So while I’ll continue studying videos, I’d like someone to watch what I’m doing and tell me that a) I’m doing it correctly, or b) doing it wrong - and then suggest how to fix it. It makes no difference if you learn something in a class or in a private session, it’s still education.
Thank you for your suggestion about the Hordowitch video. Do you have a link where it’s sold?
that would be Michigan State
Not U of M -
U of M is Ann Arbor
the Harvard of the Midwest
double float
Remember public school ? Examine teacher quality.
Worse, a number of instructor based ‘accidents’ suggests training may not be similar.
No, you did not learn to turn your kayak. Turning involves body movements finesse as with surf boarding, luge. Against the hull design/water currents.
Once past basic paddle manipulation.
The kayak is paddled as a violin plays, not a fiddle.
My observation is instructors do not have skills coordinating what they see to what you should do at that level, beyond holding the paddle.
But you do…we can give you that despite your mis-brained attempt to name me.
The video’s are thought out by expert instructors for application to your viewing and PRACTICE.
The place where the double float activates as a major learning tool. The float allows direct sensation of kayak and body at a comfortable speed allowing analysis then muscle planning …back into the video learning experience.
So with practice you go back and forth video to brain to flat to brain to video…
then you roll and brace off video instruction.
Should be obvious that is not possible in a school situation. School’s too quick, transient, for some emphemeral. A blur.
try the double float. Video’s are sold here in Paddlenet with Ford’s last on the page.
’
‘datakoll’ is a science based name game based on the animal behavior research I pursue with Orca/Boat tail grackles and humpbacks soon off Point Adolphus.
this is a public service message
you need to work on your vocabulary
When you describe and recommend the "double-float" technique, you are, in fact, instructing. Only in your case you're not very adept.
If what you said was true, you could just throw a pair of paddle-floats to someone, or a blank DVD, and say, "figure it out".
I'm sorry you had such a damaging experience at the hands of bad instructors. But I'd take a good instructor over a video any day of the week. You can't interact with a video and a video can't adapt teaching methods to fit a student.
Lastly I'd like to know your credentials regarding observing instructors. You seem to want to have the last word regarding instructors, which really needs some support other than a bunch of words and phrases mashed together where they don't belong.
so now you’re blaming your public school
It’s probably important at this point to ask your teachers what kind of student you were. And what happened.
This
is funny…and very entertaining , Once you actually learn to roll, I hope you saved these posts to read.
By the way there are two different types of kayaks as far as rolling goes, those that roll like planks and those that roll like logs…different methods in the teaching…
Best Wishes
Roy
And you don’t understand violins either
I play violin in classical orchestras and spend occasional time with fiddlers. Between your rigid attitude and butchering the language I suspect further development of that simile would place the posts clearly into the land of LSD.
my bad
Michigan has more than 1 school?!? Just kidding.
I don’t know Michigan well, just that he left the coastal paddling center of the world known as Northern California for there. He is having fun gloating about the house he bought for what we would consider a down payment, but that is just getting us back for when we were gloating about going out paddling and his local waterways were kinda hard and cold.
Good thread
Yes, it has been a fun and informative read. Thank you for the good wishes. Was your profile photo taken this spring on Lake Superior? Heard the ice finally melted around June 3-4.
I hope he can keep a secret
That had to be tough making that move - Lansing is as landlocked as you can get here - but I’ve a feeling he’s going to like the coastal paddling he finds here.
?
Ima semi academic from the NE. I’m involved in front edge field biology from kayak, national defense, and founded my very own science field as one of the few people on the planet to it.
You miss the point. The exercise exists of itself. The exercise is real, available, and more effective than instruction for reasons stated.
The double float exercise is not relevant to what I do, did or plan to.
and so I leave. Chow
Michigan Training Camp
Rookie,
What to look for in an instructor?
1) Certification (ACA, BCU) is a good start. At least someone in a position to evaluate that instructor's performance has done so. That said, I know many good instructors without certs.
2) General area of expertise. If you are looking at sea kayaking (open water, longer crossings, distance), look for a sea kayak instructor. A whitewater instructor can teach you loads of useful stuff, especially about body/boat/blade control and reading water, but if they are solely WW, they might miss some important safety stuff that applies specifically to sea kayakers, like crossing busy boat channels and navigation.
3) As far as the intangibles, I think an instructor needs to be patient, creative, empathetic and positive. Of course, you can't tell this about someone you have not yet worked with, so consider your kayak instruction to be like dating. Spending a day with someone could be a wasted day for you, or it could be like a spark to kindling. Date around - one size does not fit all.
Also, regarding the value of multimodal learning. I agree with others who say watch the videos, get an instructor, practice in controlled conditions (with a spotter), videotape yourself practicing, discuss online and in person. Further, work with different instructors; we all have different approaches, strengths and weaknesses.
Here is another direction to consider: Michigan Training Camp. http://www.qajaqtc.org/ It is one of the gatherings for traditional paddlers under the umbrella of QajaqUSA http://www.qajaqusa.org/QUSA/events.php Rather than "instructors," you are immersed for several days among "peer mentors" as everyone has something to share. Some really good mentors will be there, like Dave Sides and Chris Crowhurst. I don't know how far this is from you, and you may not have yet been exposed to Greenland-style paddling, but if you have the opportunity, I recommend it highly. This would be especially good for learning to roll, even if you do not switch to the "skinny stick."
FWIW, I'm an ACA Level 3 Coastal Kayak instructor in Maryland, BCU Coach 2 and QajaqUSA member.
Mike.
no, you miss the point
An exercise has to be defined by someone to be an exercise. Often it has to be demonstrated.
I have to tell you I’m not that impressed with your practical application of all that alleged academic accomplishment. But you shouldn’t judge all instructors just because yours failed you.
“The more I learn…
…the more I realize how much I don’t know.”
Have spent a fascinating hour reading about Qajaq, Greenland paddles, the Michigan Training Camp, and even the BCU. Will go back for more, but wanted to get out on the water for a bit.
The Michigan Training Camp is just a two hour drive from my home, but this year’s camp was filled as of June 1. Perhaps it’s just as well, as inviting as it sounds. I am truly a rookie, having owned a kayak only since May 23. While I know it would be a great learning opportunity, I don’t think I have enough on-the-water experience for such an event. Definitely will keep it on my radar for next year - and I sure would love to try a Greenland paddle.
Thank you, Mike, for your great input and suggestions about instruction. Loved the analogy about dating. While I’m set for my first session with an ACA instructor, he lives in Illinois. So my search for someone more local will continue.
Again, my thanks.