"Assuming you are on a collision course and acting accordingly" is one thing, but actual explanation of how geometry and speed enter into this is more effort than I care to devote. However, there is a really easy guideline for this.
If the boat you are looking at can be seen in some defined direction relative to your own direction of travel (for example, 40 degrees right of straight ahead) and does not deviate from that position, you are on a collision course. If you are stationary, this means that the other boat is heading right at you. If both boats are moving, it means that their position relative to each other in space changes only in scale, not direction, and they will collide.
There are two situations where the above rule fails, at least in the short term. The first is when two boats are going at the same speed on courses that are parallel. That might seem irrelevant, but it's not. If those those same courses were even slightly angled toward each other, the boats would be on a collision course, even if the collision might not occur until an hour from now! However, in that situation the speed of relative approach would be very slow, so there's not much danger of actually colliding. The other situation where this rule fails in the short term is for boats on diverging paths. That might seem irrelevant as well, but again, it's not. For this situation to be true, each boat "sees" the other at a point which is more than 90 degrees away from straight ahead. Since it IS possible for ONE of the two boats to see the other in such a position if the two are on a collision course, if you, as the driver, can't talk to the operator of the other boat, you won't know for sure what is going on until enough time passes for it to become clear that the other boat is either getting closer or farther away.
When two boats are traveling in such a way that each can see a colored light of the other, there are an infinite number of combinations of course and speed for each boat that will NOT lead to a collision course. The fact that one boat alters speed or direction because it "sees" the red light of the other does not mean that they would have collided otherwise. It only means that they might have collided IF they each had exactly the right combination of speed and direction relative to the other.
Some people like to say that if the boat you are looking at stays lined-up with some object behind it on the shore, you are on a collision course, but though I won't attempt to explain the geometrical error of that statement here (it's a BIG error), I will say that the ONLY time that rule is actually true is when your own boat is not moving at all. For what it's worth, this one is really easy to disprove when driving on a freeway and watching cars on highways that cross the road you are on via a bridge. When you are on a collision course with one of those cars (it crosses over the bridge at the same time you pass under it), you'll see that the car is definitely moving relative to objects in the background. The closer those background objects are, the more pronounced the relative movement.
God, that must have hurt your fingers as much as it did my eyes. All I am saying is that the red/green help to identify you as a vessel and give the other boat some idea as to which direction you are pointing and a rough idea of your speed. If nothing else, it causes them to say “gee I need to keep an eye on this because POTENTIAL exists for collision”. A single white light tells the other vessel practically nothing, and could in fact be practically anything(practically). No need to break it down ad nausium. I stick by what I said. These lights are the time honored standard for nightime navigation, but I guess in your world they are not. Bill
I sense some sarcasm here. If I had an easy alternative I would pick other waters to paddle at night in as well. The economy has slowed things down quite a bit (not in terms of speed but quantity), but Lake St. Clair has to be experienced to be fully understood. Thanks for the dig. Bill
Reading and writing accurately… … means something in my world, even if it means nothing in yours, to paraphrase this last post.
I never said what you inferred about red and green lights (having no purpose) and you never said what you are saying now about there being the “potential” for being on a collision course. In fact, regarding being on a collision course when you can see the colored lights, you said to me “Please explain how you cannot be.” Forgive me for taking you at your word. Dumber things have been stated and believed by people here.
By the way, I have very tough, and fast, fingers. You need not concern yourself with the time it took. Did it during a commercial break.
Yes, I should have been more precise, but tonight I decided to treat my back with Jack Daniels rather than with the usual Advil or worse. I should have said "seeing red/green absolutely creates the potential for collision and as such forces the oncoming vessel to have to think". Or perhaps more directly " it gives the other boat something to think about, more than just a white light which can appear and disappear behind your torso". I did write this yes? "If you are underway and you see red/green lights, you should assume that you are on, or near, a collision course. Please explain how you cannot be." I do not see the problem with accuracy here. I said on, or near. Which leads to my comment on it giving them something to think about. I did'nt expect some kind of spanish inquisition............................................................................:) Bill
your comment of "means something in my world, even if it means nothing in yours" is a little snippy. Perhaps I should offer you my Jack Daniels.:)
I really was amazed. I knew many lakes had some fast boats to watch out for but didn’t realize just how bad it could be. I can see why so much attention to lights, they’d likely need to be bright too to give enough lead time on a fast boat.
don't think any lights could make a difference. I am the designated driver for my friend on his Cigarette boat. I try to stay in the middle of the lake and keep the speed down around 70mph at night. There is a boat across the lake in Canada that goes 175mph called Superman and the Bud Light Mono hull one mile down the lake goes close to 190mph I have heard. There are many many more on the lake capable of 100mph plus. Lake of the Ozarks is probalby the only other lake that is worse (or better depending on your slant). I stay inshore of where the offshore racers run, now it is Billy Bob bass boat with his 300hp outboard going from fishing spot to fishing spot at 80mph. I reach for my pfd zipper and my skirt, my friends (one of whom has posted on this thread) reach for their flare guns. I would rather dive down than shoot it out. Sorry I misread your intent, but Guideboatguy and I are having a snowball
fight and I thought you were packing snow.:) Bill
I “get” that and think you see my point I too struggle with stereotyping and a nagging growing distain…for kayakers. I know it’s disingenuous and unproductive, and really the result of the minority who are inconsiderate idiots. Probably why I reacted, as it reflects my own bias in the other direction.
I’ve seen major ugly on both sides and it’s silly.
why not just follow the colregs? Rule 25: Sailing Vessels Underway and Vessels Under Oars
(a) a sailing vessel underway shall exhibit:
(i) sidelights;
(ii) a sternlight.
(b) In a sailing vessel of less than 20 meters in length the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule may be combined in one lantern carried at or near the top of the mast where it can best be seen.
(i) A sailing vessel of less than 7 meters in length shall, if practicable, exhibit the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) or (b) of this Rule, but if she does not, she shall have ready at hand an electric torch or lighted lantern showing a white light which shall be exhibited in sufficient time to prevent collision.
(ii) A vessel under oars may exhibit the lights prescribed in this rule for sailing vessels, but if she does not, she shall have ready at hand an electric torch or lighted lantern showing a white light which shall be exhibited in sufficient time to prevent collision.
A kayak is considered a “vessel under oars”. Therefore either a constant white light; a flash light; or green, red and white running lights. For what it’s worth, I go with a 360° white light on the stern and a flashlight in my pocket.
it seems like general snobbery and elitism is a common theme on pnet… and on every subject not just power boaters. There are a few in every bunch i suppose but it seems pretty heavy around here, and more so lately. The majority of posters here are good people and there is a TON of useful info here but the overall level of ‘smug’ makes reading through the crap to get to the good stuff a lot harder
ive never been a power boater, but ive been around plenty in the last decade of paddling. I have never seen one with an ill will toward a paddler or being unsafe, usually the make obvious effort to gave you room and are very courteous. Sure there are quite a few drinking but i bet more folks with a paddle are drinking than the fishermen i see in john boats.
“Yeah there are jerk powerboaters as there are kayakers who are often incompetent mariners, let alone poorly skilled paddlers. Many kayakers are rescued by power boaters.”
so true, and id bet a dollar that there are more incompetent, poorly prepared or trained paddlers than there are jerk power boaters.
HAVE to check state and CG regs For lighting on paddle boats, you really have to check your state’s laws, as well as Coast Guard if you are in waters where the CG is the primary enforcer.
For example, a flashlight used as needed does not meet the legal requirement in NY state. As is apparently required in Alabama, the law requires any craft under 18 ft in length to have a constant white light visible in a 360 degree arc. I don’t believe there is a distance it has to cover, but anything that is directional or not always on is something the local Coast Guard auxiliary (and there are a lot more of them around now) can cite you for. I don’t think it’s a major penalty, and frankly it is more often ignored than not, but it is the legal requirement.
One annoyance with the white light is that it attracts the hell out of bugs, so one that can be mounted at least at an arm length away is nice.
As to flashing lights - I’m with a couple of the folks above. Anything that strobes is supposed to indicate a problem or distress. This tends to get overlooked, but it is worth considering if you are in an area where power boaters may act responsibly and rush over to help. I am not saying that they’d run you over, but if you are paddling near shore that Good Samaritan could end up in shallower stuff than their boat can take trying to help.
Green/red running lights are supposed to indicate a vessel that is under power, I think but am not certain that is universal. So you need to consider whether you want to give the appearance of being able to move that quickly. I don’t think there is a right or wrong answer on that one - just doing what works in your local area.
Notice that blinking lights are not among the specifications and that the picture of using a white light shows it being directed upward, not in the eyes of the approaching vessel. This latter issue has been thoroughly discussed the several older threads. In short, don’t shine the light at the approaching boat.