Kayak Roll vs Surfski remount (Epic V7)

@DrowningDave said:
I suffer from cleithrophobia (yes I know, it makes no sense) but unfortunately it’s something I’m always fighting against. Some people with this issue do not like being closed in anything, even if the top part of the body is free. Being upside-down in a sea kayak can be scarey even it’s only for a couple of seconds. I’ve sea kayaked for decades but the uncomfortable feeling doesn’t go away. Didn’t stop me but didn’t make me happy either. Thankfully with a surfski I don’t have to deal with it any more. And thankfully I have no phobia about drowning.

Well said Dave. Being wrapped in all the clothing, pdf, skirt combined with the trapped sensation is a lot to handle.
While I have no issue with either one of those things in isolation, when combined with cold water it gets to the point where I have to objectively assess all the bits of the puzzle. I can work though anxieties (I know how) but what does worry me is the overall safety impact these things have and whether there’s a point in making gear changes can chip away the objective elements of danger.

I have paddled with people in surf skis in cold water. They are always way colder than me in a kayak. If that’s ok with you get the ski. I always say get it, kayak , canoe , ski, always err on the side of buy it.

@dc9mm
"err on the side of buy it.’
I like this approach:)

@dc9mm said:
I have paddled with people in surf skis in cold water. They are always way colder than me in a kayak. If that’s ok with you get the ski. I always say get it, kayak , canoe , ski, always err on the side of buy it.

How would you know if they were cold being so far being them? :slight_smile:

@SpaceSputnik said:
Close call - don’t recall anything of the sort if I don’t count somewhat frantic loop grabbing once or twice during botched roll attempts in said cold waters of lake Ontario.

I’d say that qualifies, and then I’d ask you what the heck you’re doing trying to roll in very cold water before you know how to roll in warm water … but it would be more than hypocritical given my own past. Not asking doesn’t make it any less valid though.

What I read into this is that you’re rushing things and moving faster than the amount of time you’ve had in the seat allows for. I suppose that isn’t entirely bad, because I think I turned out ok, but don’t let a setback scare you away from the “horse”.

Personally, I want to be able to carry gear with me for camping and as far as I know that isn’t possible (or at least impractical) with a surf ski. There’s the issue of exposure too, but perhaps it can be mitigated with clothing. If a surf ski is a better boat for you, then more power to you. I just think it would be a shame if the reason you switched boats was more due to inexperience than as a result of enough experience to decide on a more suitable boat.

in response to "Before the next time you get on the water in your kayak,attach and detach your skirt, 100 times, with and without the grab loop. Make it the thing you are doing, instead of the thing in the way of the thing you are doing. "

First off, sounds very zen. I like. Second, I would suggest also that those spray skirt removal exercises be done with your dominant as well as non-dominant hand. I started doing this after an incident last April when I got rolled in some surf and momentarily (for a few minutes) seemed to have a paralyzed arm (shoulder dislocation may be a more likely scenario). I’ve had skirts that practically popped themselves off and one (returned) which I had to struggle with on dry land for minutes to get off. My current skirt is manageable but does require a nice tug towards the bow to get over the lip.

@CapeFear said:
So much of this is where your personal mind has directed it’s focus. Or perhaps the biggest frustration you’ve experienced as of late.
I’ve paddled a V7 a couple of times. I surfed some waves in one the first time, and tried one with a sail in a nice steady wind this summer. It’s plenty stable, like a stable sea kayak. It’s fun to paddle. I’ll encourage you to pick one up and have fun.

Complexity of the roll? Depends upon the individual. I learned it, use it, it’s no big deal, and it’s really not all that complex to some. In order to figure out where you might fall on the rolling spectrum - just a simple motion, to a constantly elusive, never quite get to the relaxed and confident end of the spectrum, you just have to learn it for yourself. But besides that, I wouldn’t compare remounting a V7 with a roll. A roll is just a stroke. It’s really not comparable with coming out of the cockpit of your boat, sit-in or SOT.

A significant thing that reasonably would have you reflecting upon the insignificance of your skirt frustration would be the difference in exposure in cool weather between a sit-in and SOT. That difference is major.

The V7 is good for runs, but turning back out over breaking water without something holding me in the cockpit left the V7 washing out from underneath of me. There’s no way to control it like you would control a typical sea kayak on a surf play day.

I would suggest you do two things. First and foremost, stop avoiding the thing that is frustrating you. Before the next time you get on the water in your kayak,attach and detach your skirt, 100 times, with and without the grab loop. Make it the thing you are doing, instead of the thing in the way of the thing you are doing. This might sound goofy, but the level of frustration you’re expressing surrounding it seems to warrant a “get yourself over this” approach.
Second, I think you should get yourself a V7.

@Sparky961
I hear you and agree on most points if not all. Funny enough I actually managed a couple of partial rolls with all that. I even think I know what I did wrong with the failed attempts.
There is something frustrating about this sport and me in it and I have hard time verbalizing it. On one hand there is an appearance of a well defined path with Paddle Canada stuff, but in reality after level 1 there is this gaping hole where they say “get seat time before taking level2” while not giving enough safety parameters and progression guidelines. During this time you end up trying stuff you shouldn’t be trying and no amount of talking with experienced people gives you a good sense of how to proceed. I actually saw folks get into nasty stuff that way, my humble shenanigans just don’t compare to what I have heard (and luckily not seen firsthand because I could not go out that day). Everyone is alive and well but it certainly put a dent into our collective psyche.
Yeah. “Get seat time”. That’s exactly what we are doing, aren’t we? Frustrating.

Anyway, I digress. In regards to skis - V7 does have a rear hatch, so it’s more like a kayak that way. I still like the idea of a boat like that. Whether I will be getting one or not I am not sure. but I still find the idea attractive for a number of reasons.

@SpaceSputnik said:
… you end up trying stuff you shouldn’t be trying and no amount of talking with experienced people gives you a good sense of how to proceed.

Sorry to keep picking small quotes, but you have a way of sticking one or two sentences in your replies that sum things up very well.

The point is, you’re still alive despite what you’ve been doing. That means you’ve been doing a lot of things right. Life is not without risk. Neither is kayaking. Approach them with some sense and you’re more likely to get through with only a few scars to show for your mistakes.

Anyway… now it sounds like I’m preaching. There are two different ideas in this thread and I’ll back off and let you talk boats.

@Monkeyhead said:
momentarily (for a few minutes) seemed to have a paralyzed arm

That’s the main question I am raising here. Stuff happens, we make mistakes. Arm not working, forgot to test new gloves, hands got cold and lost flexibility. Concussion, sudden offset of labyrinthis, a panic attack…None of these things go well with having to detach a skirt. We can get very zen, work on fears but none of it will reduce the extra objective complexity. If I knew that the worst that could happen is floating in water until help arrives I would get a PLB and keep on trucking. Fears? Maybe, but is there an objective element here?

@Sparky961 said:
Care to elaborate? I’m trying to get at the root issue here because my impression is that is doesn’t have much to do with the style of boat.
To me, his concerns seems quite rational and justified. Those concerns have a lot to do with the boat and the other equipment.

Removing a spray skirt during winter paddling does have more causes for error than removing a spray skirt during summer paddling. Gloves can be one of those causes. Cold fingers can be another. Beginning, mild hypothermia (which may have occurred unnoticed already before the capsize) can be a third, affecting your ability to think clearly below the water.

Winter paddling, sometimes with ice on the water, has given me a lot of respect for these problems. I more or less consider any training I did during the summer as “forgotten” when I reach winter. I have to train everything again, in cold water and with the exact gloves, etc. which I will use during actual winter paddling.

I’ll digress, I guess that means look back on my experience. I only paddled a surfski once relatively flat, for 30 minutes maybe. Kept the shiny side up. It was a symposium in Washburn WI and most trying the ski’s were not making it very far. I actually got kudo’s from the boat owner as I was wearing my tuilik and had the stick (paatit). That might have been sales pitching. ;^), as she was in the biz.
As I had engineered a horridly unstable SOF that had a 17" beam at that time, and had paddled it a lot so I was used to tender hulls, I think it made the 16" ski palatable, even for a first try. I had become well entrenched in the Greenland Style and had practiced many rolls ad nauseam.(literally and figuratively). That SOF required the effort every time I took it out in rough water.
Rolling since 2004 in various craft, mileage, mileage, mileage has just made it a muscle memory habit. It is so easy to roll, in conditions that I paddle in and I do like texture to the water. 2 seconds to recover, instead of wet exit. I am cognizant of conditions that would challenge a roll though, like capsizing in breaks right on shore. I still practice swim to shore wet exits in that zone.
Any way i know nothing about the remounting a ski in open water. Two guys I chatted with all summer this year on ski’s, as they flew by me many a day, would always leg dangle when they stopped to chat.
Back to the present, the ice has came in and went out about 5 times this month, there is open water out there again right now. I’m heading out
.

^ I would not think about a traditional tippy ski at this time.of my padddling career, but V7 is not like that. It’s said to be kayak-stable.

The charts on this article are good but the V7 is not mentioned. Gives a good idea of stability and speed though.

http://www.surfskiracing.org/surfski-reviews-updated-march-2012/

@Allan Olesen said:

@Sparky961 said:
Care to elaborate? I’m trying to get at the root issue here because my impression is that is doesn’t have much to do with the style of boat.
To me, his concerns seems quite rational and justified. Those concerns have a lot to do with the boat and the other equipment.

Removing a spray skirt during winter paddling does have more causes for error than removing a spray skirt during summer paddling. Gloves can be one of those causes. Cold fingers can be another. Beginning, mild hypothermia (which may have occurred unnoticed already before the capsize) can be a third, affecting your ability to think clearly below the water.

Winter paddling, sometimes with ice on the water, has given me a lot of respect for these problems. I more or less consider any training I did during the summer as “forgotten” when I reach winter. I have to train everything again, in cold water and with the exact gloves, etc. which I will use during actual winter paddling.

To be fair, the way I posed the initial question was not clearly winter-specific. Now that I am thinking a bit more clearly I see this as a double or even a triple-edged issue. First, there’s a fear of being under in favorable conditions. This is something understandable for a beginner, but most people to get a hang of it pretty quickly. I am no exception, I did just fine during classes and on my own in warmer water with a wetsuit on. There are certainly techniques to help, for example tapping a boat three times before pulling the skirt helps to zen oneself out nicely. In this conditions, overcoming a fear of being under is not unlike an exposure exercise your therapist might prescribe if you have anxiety issues.

Second, less ideal conditions, but no extremes. I can clearly see that me is the biggest variable here. Even after an hour or two of paddling, my mind starts to “glaze over”. I am scanning the environment less actively, anything like an attempt to edge starts carrying a larger potential for error.
I used to downhill ski a fair bit and I know how it goes. Fatigue creeps over you, but you don’t realize it until you start making errors. It used to be my criteria for calling it a day - if I start wiping out more than usual, it is time to wrap it up. It takes a while for the real fatigue to clearly manifest itself, but you are already impaired. At the time you are packing, you feel fine and perhaps capable of staying longer. The you drive home for a while and it’s all fine until you get out of the car and realize how massively tired you are. I have observed the same thing with paddling outings. Exact same thing.

Third, winter. All of the above plus everything looks and feels and smells very different. You are packed in layers, hood, gloves. you are most likely completely alone unless you are in a group. In summer, every time I practiced self-rescue, someone would paddle over and offer assistance. Every time without fail. One time, a dragon boat full of paddles pulled over :slight_smile:
In winter, there are a few passers by at the shore that could care less. Paddle around the corner and you are on your own. That was basically the point when I saw clearly that winter is not just a colder summer, but something else entirely. At that point I can no longer fully subscribe to “it’s all in your head” idea without examining the whole thing from a rational and detailed perspective.
“Ski vs kayak” subject is basically a case study. Ski removes one of the variables, but quite possibly adds others. The question is whether it can realistically tip the scales significantly enough.

@DrowningDave said:
The charts on this article are good but the V7 is not mentioned. Gives a good idea of stability and speed though.

http://www.surfskiracing.org/surfski-reviews-updated-march-2012/

Oh there’s plenty of reviews on the interwebz, they all praise V7’s stability.

@SpaceSputnik said:
^ I would not think about a traditional tippy ski at this time.of my padddling career, but V7 is not like that. It’s said to be kayak-stable.

It’s very stable. 2014 was the summer I started paddling. In 2015 I paddled a V7 on Lake Huron for 10 miles,. A major storm rolled in a mile from the take-out. That I was able to keep the ski upright and moving forward in the biggest and scariest waves I had been in was because of the stability of the ski, not my nonexistent skills.

As to speed, I had initially demoed the V7 on Lake Michigan when the water was pretty flat. I had my Forerunner going and it reported 7 mph with not much effort (or good technique). The Lake Huron trip was much slower because of the waves, wind, and my inexperience. You’d have no such issues.

The only thing I didn’t like about the V7 is that it’s a very wet ride, but the bailer works well.

Strangely, but being wet sounds pretty appealing to me. Unless it makes it too cold, of course.

Wesley can’t paddle everything but it’s still a good guide for other models. The V7 is very wide so therefore very stable. Great for riding big swells. A bit heavy though so there are other options worth looking into. I have no idea what the used ski market is in your area but I recommend being open to other stable ski options.

@DrowningDave said:
Wesley can’t paddle everything but it’s still a good guide for other models. The V7 is very wide so therefore very stable. Great for riding big swells. A bit heavy though so there are other options worth looking into. I have no idea what the used ski market is in your area but I recommend being open to other stable ski options.

I see no used market around here. There’s a used V7 two hours away and that’s pretty much it.

That should make it pretty easy. The market in my area is poor but not quite that bad. Ask the seller if you can demo it. And get it before your wife says no.