Kayak Upgrade - Plastic vs. Glass

Advice
#21

I own five boats, composite Nordkapp,

– Last Updated: Mar-13-10 8:46 AM EST –

composite Aquanaut, composite Cetus, Skin on Frame, and Aquanaut LV RM. If God came down and said, "sorry, only one boat per customer", that one and only boat would be the Aquanaut LV RM. You can search the many posts on this boat (quite a few are mine, sorry), it is a fine choice for what you are talking about. My next boat are going to be a NDK Romany Surf. If you are not happy with the Naut RM, look at Eddyline and avoid subzero crashes, or weight laden drops onto coral and rocks. Thermal formed boats are certainly repairable, I just do not care for the failure mode. Everything has it trade offs. Bill

#22

Upgrade? They’re ALL plastic.
All these boats are made of plastic – rotomolded polyethylene (linear or crosslinked), layered royalex, thermoplastic, and all the plastic-resined composite boats. Even many wooden boats are coated in one of the plastics.



I don’t see going from one type of plastic boat to another type of plastic boat to be an “upgrade” – so much as it is simply moving to a plastic with different structural, repairability and cost characteristics.



To get out of the plastic cycle, we should return to dugout and bark canoes. Then, with a simple axe, crooked knife and bone sewing needle, we could all have abundant, inexpensive and perfectly recyclable pleasure craft.

#23

upgrading to higher performance
I think the references to upgrading are for greater speed, more advanced skills,etc. from rec boats to touring boats, rather than an upgrade of material composition alone. Let’s call it an upgrade of design.



I’d jump at the chance to try & paddle a Woodland Indian dugout or bark canoe.

#24

Higher? Performance? All relative.

– Last Updated: Jun-20-09 5:08 PM EST –

I'm really not trying to play word games, but I do want to emphasize that all these words are relative and subjective ... and hence mean different things to different people under different paddling conditions.

Absolutely, design can change performance. Changing designs will make a bigger performance difference than just changing the type of plastic material.

Now, the issue is often raised as to whether a boat of the exact same design performs differently in composite plastic than in, say, Royalex plastic. Well, we know the cost will be different. We know certain structural characteristics will be different, such as resistance to impact, abrasion and sheer. We know the weights can be different.

But will there be a difference in speed, efficiency, tracking or turnability? Some paddlers say, yes. Often the claim is that composites are faster than other plastics of the same design. The rebuttal is that the design is never really the same because a plastic like Royalex can never be manufactured to the same fine design lines as the composite. Another rebuttal is that the plastic that flexes more, such as Royalex, will distort the design and compromise certain performance characteristics such as speed. Of course, thin composites can flex, too.

Because there is so much relativity and subjectivity in the eclectic sport of paddling, there really are only two buying strategies that make sense:

1. Targeted profligacy. Get a different self-propelled watercraft for each different need and situation. This will result in the buyer acquiring a "fleet".

2. Bill Masonism. Accept the claim that a wood/canvas Chestnut Propector is the perfect paddlecraft and hence the only one you will ever need to buy. You can paddle it Canadian style for performance paddling and freestyle, you can deck it with fabric to reduce windage and keep dry, you can sail it, and you can paddle it with double blade if you like. This buyer will end up with more disposable income than #1 and will have a smaller, or less cluttered, garage.

#25

griffin & dand
your posts are very sensible and great general advice. For this poster and his updates on how he intends to use his kayak they make sense.



But let me take another step and add that in some cases a good used composite boat can be had for less than the price of a new or newish plastic one. I am talking about boats of similiar size, not comparing a used Valley Pintail or Skerray, say, with a used Pungo 120 or Tsunami 120.



Sometimes, for reasons of weight, a paddler may want the lighter weight and different performance of composite, and be willing to do the research and actual demos to find the right composite used boat that fits them and their purposes.



In that case I say go for it and pass go, go composite. It depends on priorities. In my case weight was a real issue being a small female. I got musk-kles but not for boats well over 50 lbs “water ready” (OP don’t fall for catalog weights, they are usually what the kayak weighs without hatch covers, footpegs, etc. All white lies LOL)



In my case I got a brand new, in the wrap thermoformed plastic 13’5" boat for $740 and a few months later a minty 16 footer British kayak in composite, found for $1200 right here on pnet.



There was no reason for me to go rotomoulded plastic inbetween even when cost was factored in.






#26

I’ll take the cluttered garage thank you
http://s44.photobucket.com/albums/f4/Wolverinemw/backbands/?action=view&current=Bandband008.jpg&newest=1

#27

"sorry, only one boat per customer"
I own 4 sea and 2 ww kayaks - including an RM Necky Elaho DS, NDK Romany in Elite layup, Valley Aquanaut in ProLite layup, and a Valley Nordkapp LV in standard layup.



Though I mostly paddle the Nordlow or Romany these days, if I had to go back to one boat, I would probably choose the Aquanaut :wink:

#28

Homing In
Again - all your posts have been incredibly helpful - Thank You to all! I am particularly intrigued by cd1’s prediction of the future demise of glass boats -I expect more interesting debates to come on that topic! Personal preference is also obvioulsy a large factor in this debate. I am a “nut” about carefully maintaining other high end gear that I own, and this to me is a downside of glass since I know I will try to avoid scratching or otherwise damaging a beautiful composite hull - my own hang-up, I realize. One thing I have done so far regarding the advice you have provided on poly is to look more closely at the Valley Aquanaut RM and the P&H Scorpio RM. Both are great boats - I have been in them at a retailer, but not water-teseted them. I am partial to the Scorpio based on fit and features like the 4th hatch. How does the P&H Corelite material compare to the triple-molded poly of the Aquanaut?

#29

I agree
My thoughts are the same as friendlyfire’s.



If you want a composite boat, don’t buy a plastic boat as a way to figure out which composite boat you want. Just get a used composite boat and use it while you learn more specifically what you like and don’t like.



Resale is much better on older composites than older plastic, and IMO, you’ll have more fun in a stiffer, slicker, somewhat lighter boat while you learn.

#30

Homing In

– Last Updated: Jun-21-09 9:10 PM EST –

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBGVhWZuRFw

Hi, Original Poster. Despite what one poster is trying to espouse, as you see from being inthe showroom yourself, not all plastics are the same (Prijon blowmolded, Valley triple layer, Corelite from P and H, and on and on--no sense trying to ague with that poster who has not be in a showroom for a decade or so). The video above shows the P and H at 55 lbs; the Valleys are similar (and both are about 5 lbs heavier than their finicky fiberglass models). I am with moparharn and wilsoj, if I had one boat to pick and none other, it'd be a Valley Aquanuat plastic.

I own, I think, every issue of Sea Kayaker Magazine--it is amazing as one looks over year-to-year issues, from 1980s to now, how plastics were really not even considered 25 years ago, then they made inroads with soft, deforming rotomolded types, then the designs of plastic craft became more and more like glass sea kayaks as plastic molding evolved, to now, where plastic really is superior material in many ways (maintenance, cost, recyclability, and now performance matches glass). In ten years, I think plastic will be superior in every way--frankly; people stuck on weights will want to see that 5-6 lbs difference shaved down to same as glass, and then they'll admit plastics superiority. Again, for those that adore fiberglass, more power to them. Painstakingly crafted hand-made boats with double the cost to build compared to pressed materials do appeal to some paddlers. These are perhaps the paddlers who pay Amish housewives $150 each for hand-knit sweaters and claim that they are warmer than my $30 machine knit. I don't know.

To your question, I have never seen a plastic P and H boat.

www.kayakquixotica.com Derrick has blogs about plastic Scorpio; he bought one two weeks ago--read it on his site. I have heard, and don't know if true, that the P and H plastic is slightly more deformable (aka softer) than Vallley Canoe Porducts plastio. One could determine in person by sitting on front deck near coaming--does it deflect?

I'm going out on a limb one more time here about resale. Used fiberglass boats--and I eBay regularly and also have bout used boats--generally sell for about 1/2 their original cost. A new glass Valley is about $3200 now; you can find them on eBay and here for about $1600-1700 (many ask more but don't get it)--just as friendlyfire mentioned above. But because you can buy a used glass boat for the same price as a new plastic boat is not justification to buy glass--I could buy a $10k Bianchi racing bike for $5000 used and rip it to shreads on the roads near my house, but that doesn;t mean I buy it. What ff's accurate comment above does mean is, as I am stating, glass boats take a bath on the resale market.

PLastic is $1600 new, and sells for about $1000 used. (Very rare to see a true sea kayak in plastic for under $1000--if you do, grab it!) Why? People in the used market can spare $1000, and many have that as a ceiling on purchase prices. So, in essence, on a percentage basis, you will recoup more initial investment with resale of plastic than glass, too. Another way to look at it-- buy new glass boat and sell t two years later: loss $1500. Buy new plastic kayak and sell two years later: loss $600.

By the way, I have bought used and new plastic and compsite and carb Kev, and I bought a new composite sectional sea kayak in 2008 from VCP(sectionals do not come in plastic, or I would have bought THAT) so I practice what I preach--I got gouged on new kayaks, too. I don;t have some axe to grind here. I only bought new composite when I kew I'd use it forever. The loss is too high to buy and sell composite and glass boats.

http://sectionalseakayak.blogspot.com/2009/04/sectional-valley-aquanaut-lv.html

That link has my Valley sectional with Carb Kev hull-- sectional is the only reason I got it in anything other than plastic.

I prefer the Valley Sea Kayak hatch covers hugely beyond those that I am seeing in this video from youtube above, by the way, but admittedly, I have not seen P and H hatch ocvers.

Yes, choose fit for you in the end as final criteria.

If you are admittedly fussy, and paddle the stumpwaters of your great state just as I do here, you'll adore a fine plastic sea kayak. And you can put the $1500 difference that you did't spend on fiberglass in your "trip fund" for that winter kayak adventure to Key West you've always dreamed of.

#31

Homing In=plz see my post a few above
Thanks, Symm.

#32

kayak materials - starter version
Original poster, greetings -


  1. CD1 is right… there is plastic, then there is plastic Different formulas yield differences in appearance, performance and maintainance. They are not all the same. Thermoforms, for example, are very

    different and perform much more like fiberglass than rotomould, Gen2X, and Gen3X, Duralite, etc.



    Don’t take my word. Try some kayaks in each material. (e.g. lift, drop, and paddle them).


  2. Having said that: within the class of thermoforms,

    for our consumer purposes, ABS and ABA plastics ARE pretty much the same: they have proprietary names

    such as Carbonlite, Trylon, Airalite,etc. but they are virtually identical. Build and design quality may vary but not the basic material. So trust not the marketing hype.


  3. P&H’s version of Corelite (yup, they apparently have their own): less than 2 weeks ago in this advice forum I posted for actual experience w. kayaks made of Corelite. P&H made Capellas in this material years before they brought out the Scorpio versions. Read that string, demo those plus the Valley plastics and see what you think.



    Sit on the decks and sterns of each. Push against the bulkheads. A little bit of flexing is OK. A lot, or if the bulkheads move, and you run or swim away fast '-) Good advice for a kayak made of any material, btw.


  4. A fiberglass boat is not a Faberge egg. It sounds like you are getting unnecessarily concerned. Boats of all sizes have been built of fiberglass for a long time, as have window frames, hot tubs and some airplane parts. The material is proven. It can take it. We’re alike in that I appreciate beautifully crafted things like a composite seakayak. I care for my sporting toys. But it doesn’t mean I don’t use them or don’t expect them to deliver on what they are meant to do.



    And, if you truly cherish your composite boats, you can touch up or repair scratches. With a plastic boat you pretty much live w. them unless you feel like learning the art of plastic welding.



    Unless you foresee your kayaking as bashing along in swift, shallow rocky rivers, or urban waters festooned w. riprap, partially submerged concrete spoil and the like, the natural home for a fine plastic boat,there is no need to be skittish about fiberglass or kevlar/fiberglass.



    Let us know how the demos go!



    Best -

    /D
#33

I agree w. everything FF just wrote.

#34

P&H hatch covers are Kajak-Sport
P&H, NDK (now SKUK), TideRace, Current Designs, Swift et al use Kajak-Sport hatches - not to mention obviously Kajak-Sport itself.



Necky, Impex, North Shore, et al (including Valley) use Valley hatches.



Up until recently NDK used Kajak-Sport for main hatches and Valley for day hatch. They now use Kajak-Sport for day hatch as well.