Hypothermia
I’ve seen two paddlers in the initial stages of hypothermia in August in TN on 80+ degree days. The Hiwassee has water temps in the 50s and the weather was overcast with a stiff wind. Both were uncontrollably shivering and probably less than 5 minutes from being in real trouble if they had stayed in the water. One had taken a 3-5 minute swim and the other had a loose wetsuit for a self rescue class where you were in the water intermittently.
Again, that was 80 degree weather in TN in August.
If you can’t warm back up quickly things can go bad in a hurry.
Jim
Just lost one to 56 degree water
Here in Jordan lake the water temp is already down to 56. A man lost his life swimming out to a boat that had drifted from shore. I wear a wetsuit starting at 70 degree water and the water here gets into the 40’s.
I had a six month old dry suit have multiple failures in the 1990’s and I’ve not worn one since without a wet suit underneath. The dry suit is really great until it leaks and then it is pretty deadly. Watch those Gaskets, you do not know how long the suit has been on the rack at the store and for some folks the gaskets only last a season.
Sad…
Too bad about the recent death while trying to catch a floating boat. Note that it is rare than you will be able to catch up to a wind blown object since the max speed of good swimmers is well under 5 mph.
Once wind gets hold of a boat (or other object) and starts moving it, it quickly will exceed the swim speed of most. I lost a friend in high school who tried to chase a wind blown volleyball and have since seen this type of event several times.
As for temperatures, it is really a good thing to test what you can stand. The ocean off N. Ca. reaches a high near 62 or so in winter and is usually closer to 55 for the rest of the year. An hour in that is more than most can stand. I’ve been in colder water, and have even been able to swim for short periods in temps down to about 50 without a wetsuit, but it is REALLY not pleasant and I’ve only done this on really hot days.
A lot of this is predicated on knowing one’s limits and I don’t think that sub 50 F water should be approached without knowing what you can stand, how long you can stand it, and how quickly you lose physical skills due to hypothermia (and note that the brain is affected more quickly than the body and it is very difficult to exercise good judgement in such conditions).
Rick
Again, I appreciate all your advice, but
"Go and try it for yourself with whatever you plan paddling in. Don’t go too far from shore: 20 feet at most. Capsize and fully immerse, head and all. See how prone you are to gasp reflex. Stay in the water at least 10 minutes. See how that affects your mobility and awareness. Try to get back in your boat. Do have a witness/friend with the ability to warm you up."
As I have mentioned:
- 100’ out is about 4’ deep. 20’ out would be barely up to my knees, so I don’t think I want to capsize there. (my dock is 60’ long and the water is 34" deep at the end. I haven’t measured out further, but I can see the bottom very clearly, so it can’t be very deep.)
- I have been submerged in water with ice on it (when the air temperature was 20) and while I don’t like it, there was no gasp reflex (I suppose I should check to see what that is), and I immediately swam after my canoe and paddle and got them to shore; so there was no noticeable loss of mobility or awareness.
- 10 minutes? No, I expect I probably would die after 10 minutes. But since I will only be in 3 or 4 feet of water and it won’t take more than a couple minutes max to get to shore, I won’t be worrying about what will happen in ten minutes.
- Trying to get back in my boat in 4’ of water seems pretty silly. Perhaps that is why it would take 10 minutes?
Gasp Reflex …
“I have been submerged in water with ice on it (when the air temperature was 20) and while I don’t like it, there was no gasp reflex (I suppose I should check to see what that is”
Yes you should check into the gasp reflex because that is what kills most people in cold water. It’s a reflex when instantly immersed in very cold water. A lot of experiments have been done and it’s pretty unusual not to have any gasp reflex without pre-conditioning even at much higher temperatures than water near the freezing point.
I would be willing to bet if I capsized you in your boat in your skirt in 33 F water you would have one hell of a panicked gasp reflex. It does not matter if the water is 3 Ft deep you can still drown if you aspirate a little bit. At the very least buy a wetsuit and a hood. And if you don’t believe the people posting here. Go do a test with someone nearby to help.
I’m out…next, please on P.Net
good insulation
between your ears.
I’m out.
You’ll figure it out one way or the other.
You aren’t getting what is being said
– Last Updated: Dec-11-12 8:32 AM EST –
You are assuming just a few minutes to walk 100 ft thru extremely chilly water - I live upstate so I know you are talking sub-40 degree water by another couple of weeks of overnight temps in the 20's. That is probably a very good estimate for when the water is warm.
It is not a reliable estimate for when the water is 38 degrees if you have remotely close to my own tolerance - your legs and balance could stop serving you well before you made it to shore in anything less than clothing for immersion. Or if you did make it to shore, you would be unable to help yourself. You are talking about skipping even a wetsuit. In fact trying to re-enter the boat from that 4 or 5 ft of water, a very basic paddling skill which I get the impression you don't have, would take less time thus be safer if executed well. The idea in very cold water is to get out of it as fast as possible. Wading 100 ft to shore is not that.
So far you have expressed a paddling background that finds 2.5 waves challenging and seems focused on swimming or walking out of a capsize rather than handling the issue on the water some way that is faster (thus safer). You are not at a safe point to be paddling alone in dicey weather conditions, and certainly not to assume you can't capsize that boat. You are unlikely to get approval from anyone here for this idea.
so if it’s so easy…
…then do yourself a favor and prove it to yourself in cold water.
I used to live in the north country
prior to moving south, and after reading your plans I would do exactly what you plan to do especially if you can walk home.
I used to stay close enough to the shore to be able to stand up and hustle out of the water.
Many here take safety to the extremes and love to throw out “the darwin award” statement
Glean what you can from some of them and disregard others.
You are the master of your own fate!
Guy
you may not get gasp reflex, but…
as others have said the simple thing is just do a test. You know your area best and how far you may be. Maybe have a tow rope or such on you with the other end with someone on the dock. Jump out and swim/walk to shore and just see how it goes. Everyone is different and you may do well (rare but I’ve heard of cases) but only with a good test from a realistic distance can you know for sure. Enjoy a blanket and hot chocolate on shore and appreciate how much better you understand your situation and how to cope with it. Knowing for sure is a great feeling.
Toller or "troller?"
Just kidding.
Look, as some notables have said above–Get a drysuit, or at least some reasonably priced drywear to go over that wetsuit. Also, a partner frome time to time, wouldn’t be such a bad idea.
I’m in upstate NY. I also own a couple Neckys. I’ve rolled, capsized, and swam just about everything from Class IV rivers(December thru March)to thin ice-cutting paddles on thawing windswept lakes.
Send me an email if you want to safely partner-up sometime and take in water a little further from shore.
If you live close enough, maybe I’ll rendezvous with you…But if something sounds crazy–Maybe I won’t;-.
Cold Water Immersion
If you haven’t seen the Cold Water Boot Camp video, take a look at the bottom of this article - http://www.nrsweb.com/services/newsletter/2011/rtneditor_0611c.asp
Its focus is the importance of wearing life jackets, but it also reinforces the point of always dressing for the swim. There’s a lot of good advice in this thread. Glad to see so many dialed into the need to stay safe while doing what we love to do.
-Clyde
NRS
Dominos
You also need to realize that there are cases where small things get you in big trouble in a hurry. Maybe you bang up an ankle or something and instead of hustling out, you are doing a on-legged poling swim thing.
I missed an eddy last weekend on a Class III, got flipped over above a drop, fell over and laded squarely on a rock which banged up my arm and shoulder blade, wasn’t moving downstream and had to punch out. My safety guy missed a throw and I ended up swimming 50 yards in the rapid and another 50 in the washout.
This was on an easy III run where I would normally not have any trouble at all. I wasn’t planning to flip over on this trip, much less swim (last swim was 14 months ago on the Ocoee). I had on a drytop/wetsuit combo, so I was fine, but it goes to show how quickly one little thing can compound into a real situation.
When you’re thinking about paddling alone in cold conditions you need Plan A, Plan B, and Plan C and you need to practice them all in those conditions. You have Plan A and a fairly weak Plan B (lots of things might go wrong) that you haven’t tried.
I avoid paddling with those who refuse to take sound advice. I don’t want to be around when your Plan B starts coming apart.
Jim $0.02
winter paddling
Paddle in December, dress for immersion. There is always a chance of capsizing. The scenario you describe, frequent paddling in winter with over confidence is exactly how people get dead.
Cold Water Cold Temps
Fortunately, I have never dumped in cold water, but I have experienced hypothermia. On a cold winters day, in Washington State, I went fishing along the shore of a local river. It was 35 degrees and snowing lightly. After an hour and a half of fruitless fishing, I discovered that I could no longer work my reel and headed back to my car. I was wearing neoprene gloves. When at my car, I discovered that I could not remove my gloves, my hands being swollen and freezing. I got them off using my teeth, but it took a long time. Next, I discovered that I could not put my hand into my jeans pocket, so swollen were they, to get to my car key and being alone and in a remote spot had no one to help me. Finally, after a miserable hour of walking around, another car parked nearby and I then had to convince a skeptical fisherman to please put his hand into my pocket and get my key. That was a lesson in cold that I will never forget. It took sitting in my car for about 45 minutes before I could get my hands to work and I could drive home.
No solution to your cold hands?
Your situation sounds like nothing I’ve ever heard of before, on account of your hands swelling up. It makes me wonder what else might have been physically wrong with you. Still, obviously your hands were extremely cold but it seems you spent that whole hour “walking around” but not making use of the warmth you carried within your clothes. Did you try to make your hands warm by putting them inside your clothing? Stick your hands inside your shirt - up under it from below if you can’t work the buttons. Stuffing your hands down your pants is great too - it “sounds wrong” when I describe it - but it works wonders (it probably can’t be done if you have a big belly though - in that case maybe put your hands right on your belly). Even if you are severely hypothermic, your body is still warm enough under your clothing to use as a heat source to get your hands working again (your hands can function quite well at a temperature that would kill you if the rest of your body were that cold, so yes, your body IS much warmer than your numb, functionless hands). You don’t mention doing any such thing, and I have often heard of people with numb, nonworking hands making no effort whatsoever to warm them, so I figured it’s worth mentioning.
Possibly Reynaud’s
sometimes extreme swelling happens. Sufferers usually have continuing difficulty with cold exposure.
In this case…
Half of those replied didn’t read the original post!
“a car with heater running”?
The OP has a HOUSE on the shore!
Or they didn’t read the rest of the thread when the OP provided additional clarification information:
“Your hand will be useless for re-entry”?
From the OP: “at 80’ out, the water is 4’ deep”!
Unless the OP is shorter than 5’, he can simply STAND UP, empty the boat by flipping it over, and cowboy back into it! No inflating paddle float, no pumping water out or any such nonsense. At most, it would take 30 seconds!
And if after a couple tries (1 minute), he decides it’s fruitless to get back in, he can simply swim/wade back to shore. 80’ takes what? 3 minutes? 6 maybe? Certainly less than 10 minutes, which is quite doable for many people. Unpleasant maybe, but not debilitating.
In college, I used to go swimming in 40 degree water once a week, wearing nothing but regular summer swim wear. It’s not nearly as terrible as many here make it. Sure, it felt cold the first 30 seconds. But the body react to it and it felt almost toasty warm after that, at least for the next 5 minutes. We sometimes stay up to 10 minutes in the water.
To the OP, the most valuable advices presented so far is TRY SWIM THE DISTANCE! You’ll then know how long it takes FOR YOU, and how cold it feels TO YOU. Go back to the house, warm up and come out again in different sets of clothing to find out what difference they make and decide accordingly!
Also scout the shore to make sure you can actually get on land from every point of the shore. You don’t want to swim to shore only to find the vegetation is so thick you can’t move through it. Or worse, a cliff bank you can’t get out at all!
As someone had pointed out, you have a plan A (not capsizing), and a weak plan B (swim to shore). Make that plan B solid by actually swimming it!
I wouldn’t “advice” anyone to do it or not do it. It’s their own decision. They need to make it base on facts relevant to the particular individual at a specific circumstance, not some rigid one-size-fit-all rule, nor scaremonger rhetoric.
partly the point I made
just try it but like any risky experiment have a safety net such as a rope to someone on the dock that can pull you in.
The problem for many (not all) is both in the gasp reflex and how almost any action can be very hard. So just walking or swimming to shore can be harder than in warm water. Any kind of rescue that requires a bit of strength, dexterity or clarity of mind can also be a problem. Not for all but many, so experiment away. If all goes well you have that extra confidence and if it doesn’t go well you know you need to make other arrangements.