I think the Greenland rolls are great. I am at this point much more impressed with the really good playboaters. Again, because of the continuity of all the strokes, including the rolls, as part of the totality of what one does in actually playing in big rough water and current.
I get a kick out of the pics of folks rolling in ice water. Really, what's the big deal? If you're dressed for immersion, then a roll in ice water is just a roll, like a roll in the pool. Actually I think rolling a pool is harder. Can't stand the chlorinated water. :D
when your offside isn’t your offside… i spent some time developing a decent roll, “on-side” first, ie right handed as i am right handed.
after a few pool sessions i began to roll up consistently, though not exactly as prettily or as effortlessly as some other students. my paddle still dove on occasion, i had to “power-up” fairly often, etc. all the usual beginner mishaps.
i was satisfied but still a bit dissapointed at the overal quality of my roll and i had serious doubts about my ability to roll up my seakayak.
at the end of my last practice session, an instructor paddled over to my end of the pool to chat. he stated how important it was to work both sides, on and off in developing a quality roll and urged me to at least try an off-side (left hand) roll. i protested because it was getting late and i didn’t want to leave the pool with a failed roll. but he prodded and so i gave it a try.
i set up left inverted and rolled up perfectly–and i mean perfectly, effortless. it was my first try and it was by far the best roll i had ever done. thinking it had to be a fluke i did it several more times and each was as perfect as the last.
not only was my roll better but it actually felt more natural to roll on that side.
i yelled at the instructor for not asking me to try that earlier and left the pool happy.
so heck, i say try your offside…it may be your onside after all.
is this ON EJ’s rolling video I was never able to hear any words, we just had it on in the shop, and so I would guffaw at his grace and skill, (and the fact that he is alec baldwin’s doppleganger).
If this is his approach I think it shows a lot of forethought, and I would encourage this approach to teaching paddling because it enforces the whole discipline, rather than breaking rolling out as a separate skill, which it is not really, it is just another type of brace, (one you do while upside down and holding your breath, but it’s still a brace).
EJ stresses rolling up from whatever position you end up in. As his roll is taught as a series of progressively deeper high braces, it becomes clear that rolling isn't some sort of magical trick but rather just an extreme brace. Although EJ's roll is best classified as a modified c-to-c or a layback c-to-c, if you watch the video closely, he does many sweep/screw rolls as well. Basically I like how he blurs the stringent aspects of the various rolls into a singular action of righting the kayak. I personally learned the Kayak Roll method first but used EJ's video to help me develop my hand rolls using the vertical paddle roll training. To be honest I even went so far as to watch his paddle flipping one hand roll trick over and over until I understood what he was doing and I could replicate it. The only thing I still don't know how he's doing is when he's upside down in his kayak and spinning it incredibly quickly using only his hands. How's he doing that?! :)
Shame, I think he made points many share While I (obviously) didn’t agree - I understood the sentiments being voiced. I think that discouragement/frustration factor may be a common feeling - so I tried to add another view from my own experience to offer another perspective.
Together those comments might have been useful to someone going through the same stuff. Oh, well.
Greyak I have not yet attempted to roll. However, I too find these threads extremely informative, educational and inspirational. My husband hopes to get his roll in the same self-taught way you did. I know the curve is different for everyone, but I think these threads and good instructional videos provide an excellent starting point, at least some encouragement!
Rather than start a thread that I’m sure has been done before, could I ask what video(s) you used Greyak (and anyone else who would care to reply)?
I believe “The Kayak Roll” is highly regarded. I was going to order it. I’d appreciate any input, critiques, etc.
Again, thanks for this thread. It is very helpful!!
excellent video The Kayak Roll does a great job teaching what is probably a modified screw/sweep roll. I find the roll to be extremely effective and a great one to learn. Along with The Kayak Roll, EJ’s Rolling and Bracing is also an excellent video. EJ’s is more of a modified c-to-c. The bracing elements in EJ’s video are particularly outstanding.
For sea kayaking/surf ? Just my inexpert view but…
If you do enough long or expedition paddling as a sea kayaker, at some point there’ll be very inconvenient rollers/ whitecapping between you and the landing spot. At the moment I know I can wrestle my paddle under the boat and over to the onside in relatively easy conditions, but I figure on starting the exercises for offside roll this coming month because I am not sure I could always count on that in messy stuff. Also, as above it could put you having to come up against a wave wanting to drop your boat hull back over again, which is possible but wouldn’t be the easiest thing to rely on at the end of a long of difficult paddle.
Use the water to help Anytime you can use the force of moving water to help you roll you are ahead of the game. You are more likely to come up and you will expend less energy. For example, catching an upstream edge while ferrying in WW is pretty common. Setting up on the downstream side of your boat makes the roll a lot easier.
Just another idea if you are open to it, the mental game of things can affect our physical abilities.
By calling a roll on side and off side, and making a duality out of one integrated set of movements, we may run the risk of making both sides more difficult. Watching 6 year olds learn to roll is quite instructive in this regard. No mental set at all, just openness to experience.
Try the mental game of calling the supposed off side the on side and see what happens to your coordination, sense of whrere you are at set up time and how easily your movements can be.
Each of us is motivated to learn by different things. For me, I want to recover my childhood joy of learning and performing things.
IMO the biggest problem for some of us learning as adults is basing the method on analytic and mechanical ideas that then inhibit finding our way to doing things naturally, with ease, relaxation, and sensation. This is not to say that we all learn things the same way of course!
Strange Isn’t It? How all that we’ve learned prevents us from learning. If I were learning to roll as a kid, it would have been one big game,and it would be easy.
having a number of rolls, onside offside provides confidence and practice to make things automatic so you can roll even if you know you’re rolling up into another 4 foot wave.
My suspicion would be that someone with only an onside roll might lack the confidence to pull off the surf roll, in conditions.
Two videos "The Kayak Roll" Is great. I also like “1st Roll” by Jay Babina. Both are sweep rolls - the first teaches an upright finish and takes you through from start to finish and really breaks it down. Good for WW and touring. The other teaches a layback finish - and more importantly it goes in reverse order in a method very easy to self teach incrementally. It’s more sea kayak oriented.
The best for me was comparing both. Each helps understand the other more completely. Where they overlap is what you what to focus on. I’ve only watched both a couple times - and that was enough.
I will probably pick up EJs too - even if a bit after the fact - as I really like multiple approaches.
Having an offside roll = having a better offside brace. Weak offside brace = more capsizes on that side and over-reliance on onside rolls (conditions permitting - or Plan B if not...).
The primary reason I see to learn (on both sides) is so you won't need them as much!
As for learning more openly - like children - there is nothing that says you can't approach it in exactly that way. Your choice. Relax!
Also have to agree with simplifying by not using the idea of onside/offside beyond a convenience in discussion. Better maybe to think up and down - or maybe not - as even that is too limiting. All angles should be OK places to be. For me that's a big point of learning this stuff. Be at any angle in any position and calmly move to whatever position you want.
Another early side benefit of practicing your "offside" and other capsize positions - you quickly learn how NOT to fight your paddle underwater - and how to easily move it around from "offside" setup (or any position) to the "onside" setup when falling back to your "onside" roll to recover.
Experience With Success breeds confidence, even it’s just a one sided roll. See this all the time in white water. Look back up at what Kanaka posted. It’s true. There may come a time where he may get trashed because of a need for an offside. But it could be far in between.
The more success you have in rough water rolling, the more confident and mentally calm you will be. There are sea kayakers with rolls on both sides that will come out in surf and whitewater. Yes. They have the roll down in practice but if they don’t play in the rough stuff enough, panic can set in because now s/he has to roll when it COUNTS.
I’ll look for EJ’s also; probably available on p-net or Amazon.